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Columbia B-School Students Criticized for Networking Etiquette

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An e-mail sent out to first year students at the Columbia Business School informs the corporate hopefuls that Investment Banking Club board members are not pleased with the young ones' networking etiquette, among other things.

Given that Quantnet just had a picnic last month where many Wall Street executives attended, i thought the points are worth mentioned.

LINK Are Columbia Business School Students Having Trouble Playing Nice With Classmates, Business News Headlines and Financial Gossip
Link Columbia B-School Students Chastised For Being Unhygienic, Impolite

To: ‘ibc-members@bettyblue.gsb.columbia.edu’
Cc: ibc-board@bettyblue.gsb.columbia.edu
Subject: [IBC] Break-out Sessions with Bankers–PLEASE READ CAREFULLY

Dear 1st years –

It has come to our attention that some of you have already managed to become notorious for their willingness to elbow their peers out of the circle around senior bankers and virtually attack the bankers with questions, thus preventing other students from networking and participating in the conversation. This is never a good strategy and acting in a socially undesirable way runs a strong risk of branding you as undesirable not just to your classmates but also to recruiters. Once you feel that you have asked a couple of questions, and perhaps received a business card, do not monopolize the banker’s time by standing around awkwardly or asking additional questions. Let your classmates play as well. Furthermore, such behavior shows that you are aggressive and non-collegial, and therefore not a pleasant person to work 100-hour weeks with.
Bankers are very observant people. Moreover, it is much easier to remember somebody with a bad impression than with a good impression – do not smother the bankers with too many questions.

§ If you see a classmate standing behind you, step aside and let them in the circle around the banker – it shows team work

§ Ask a couple of questions and then move on or remain silent and let your classmates interact as well

§ If there are 6-7 students around 1 banker, you do not want to ask more than one or two questions

§ If there are 2-3 students you can ask a few more questions if you feel you are bonding well, but always be considerate toward your classmates – use your best judgment

§ If you feel you have spend a good 15-20 minutes with one banker, it is ok to excuse yourself politely and ask for a business card

§ If the banker has run out of business cards and you have one, offer to share with your classmates

§ Remember that these events are also meant to screen for those who can one day win business from clients – treat the recruiters the way you would treat a multi-billion dollar client

§ Do not monopolize recruiter’s time – especially the senior bankers. Talk to the junior bankers as well – they often are take the first stab at drafting invite only lists

§ Do not be fake and superficial in your attempt to shine – bankers interact with tens of people on a daily basis and can easily spot fake from genuine behavior

§ Do not overwhelm bankers with questions when they are taking a small break (i.e. chewing food) – remember they are also human beings and have had a very long day at work.

§ Do not get drunk or gobble down food in front of bankers no matter how hungry and tired you are

§ Do not be intimidated to let your personality shine – being stuck-up is never a good strategy – be pleasant, be fun, smile, and stay professional

Your aim at these sessions is not to compete with your classmates, but to impress the bankers. Be smart about it – this is not rocket science!
Use your social intelligence and best judgment. Be a team player. Be considerate to your peers. This will help not only you, but also the school, look professional and desirable.

Thank you and good luck.
IBC Board
 
Please feel free to forward this to anyone you know at Columbia, with whatever description you feel appropriate of why one might listen to my critique of this note.

Dominic Connor's take on the 'Columbia Note:
>It has come to our attention that some of you have already managed to become notorious for their willingness to elbow their peers out of the circle around senior bankers and virtually attack the bankers with questions, thus preventing other students from networking and participating in the conversation.

This is banking dear, wake up and smell the roses. This game is played to win. *Of course* you prevent your competitors from getting access. My only serious criticism is the quality of the tactics. A superior neophyte banker will form an alliance with a few friends to form an efficient blocking screen, but at the same time provide mutual support in terms of helpful remarks and physically occupying the space. Scouting is also useful, to work out which banker is useful and which is not. Forming a gang to screw your opposition is called 'teamwork' and prized highly in all corporate life from banking to supermarkets.

This is never a good strategy
Yes it is, I am right, you are wrong. This is why I am a senior headhunter in financial markets.

>and acting in a socially undesirable way runs a strong risk of branding you as undesirable not just to your classmates but also to recruiters.

No, it does not. Looking like a jerk does this. The ideal here is Sean Connery as James Bond, he shafts his opponents with charm and style, with a wry smile and a joke. Banks don't want to hire jerks, they love Sean. Even the women Bond kills, love him.

>Once you feel that you have asked a couple of questions, and perhaps received a business card, do not monopolize the banker’s time by standing around awkwardly or asking additional questions.

This is nearly true. As my late drama teacher told me, "always leave them wanting more", but why does this note not include the obvious advice to make sure you have a card to give them. Odds are it will be binned of course, but it's a shot.

> Let your classmates play as well.

No. No. No.
You have a team, set up don't you ?
As the chat reaches it's natural end, catch they eye of a buddy and say "Hey Steve, I've been talking to Alex here, and he's really into commodities, you're the class whizz on natural gas, you should talk".
I'm going to alienate some here by citing modern evolutionary theory that states the best place for uneaten food is in the stomach of your friends, who now value your friendship. The banker is food, and you've just set your friend up, a smart friend now owes you.

>Furthermore, such behavior shows that you are aggressive and non-collegial, and therefore not a pleasant person to work 100-hour weeks with.

To work 100 hour weeks you have to get the job first, combine charm and edge.

>Bankers are very observant people.

Chinese people are inscrutable, Belgians are fat, Americans can't do irony, Russians drink too much, and the Irish are the best lovers, and like all generalisations it tells us little that is useful.

Some are, some aren't.

> Moreover, it is much easier to remember somebody with a bad impression than with a good impressiondo not smother the bankers with too many questions.

Being remembered is only one possible payload, if you realise this person isn't going to like you anyway, then you might as well pump them for more info.

>If you see a classmate standing behind you, step aside and let them in the circle around the >banker – it shows team work

Nearly, but not quite right.
If you can't get a member of your team, then randomly signal to some person who seems to be faring badly in the scrum. Firstly they will be less of a competitor, and although yes it shows team work, a good leader looks after the weaker members of his team. Strength is the ability to help others. Some people are shy, have poor English skills, or do not have sharp elbows, help them because you are a good person, but because this is a cynical note, make sure you get the credit, actually say out loud "Chin isn't getting much of this", beckon them over and help them put together a question, possibly by highlighting something they are good at.

>Ask a couple of questions and then move on or remain silent and let your classmates interact as well
I fail to see any reason to do that at all.

>§ If there are 6-7 students around 1 banker, you do not want to ask more than one or two questions

Who are you to tell me what to 'want' ?
The optimum number of questions is the number that gets the most information and leaves the best impression. I've seen 30 drones around a well known banker, makes no difference.

When you do end the interaction however, make sure that you say something like "I shouldn't monopolise your time, this has been good, can I call you ?" This gets buy in for a follow up, and maybe a card from someone who has been holding back.

Why in the name of Brian this is not in this note is beyond me. It is both courtesy and a standard part of networking.


>§ If there are 2-3 students you can ask a few more questions if you feel you are bonding well, but always be considerate toward your classmates – use your best judgment

Always *look* considerate.

>§ If the banker has run out of business cards and you have one, offer to share with your classmates

I actually had to step away from my keyboard when I read this because the warranty doesn't cover damage from vomit.

For a start these are trade items, giving them without a quid pro quo is only good where you have an honourable reason, like repaying a favour, or some pooled effort. Also business cards are printed in packs of 50. When a banker says he has "run out", the odds are that he doesn't really think he wants you to phone him, so if you have a card and others don't you have won something in his eyes. Either way if you did your preparation right you don't need the card, you did prepare, didn't you ?

>§ Remember that these events are also meant to screen for those who can one day win business from clients – treat the recruiters the way you would treat a multi-billion dollar client

Some of my clients are *very* rich, and my standard way of dealing with them at crowded venues is to identify somewhere we can go which is less crowded.I certainly don't introduce them to my competitors, unless I can do it in a way that makes them look bad.


>§ Do not monopolize recruiter’s time – especially the senior bankers. Talk to the junior bankers as well – they often are take the first stab at drafting invite only lists
This is sort of useful, if you can spot senior bankers reliably by eye alone. I'm a headhunter of some experience and I confess for all to know that I can't do that with great reliability, I don't see how newbies can do this well, but if you somehow can, and banking doesn't work out, give me a call.

Do identify the HR minders, they have potentially enormous power, but also since they aren't hiring managers, you can legitimately ask them who you should be talking to, after explaining your situation. Being asked for advice is always flattering, and that allows you to approach the right banker and say "X says I should talk to you about..." A much better way of starting a conversation isn't it ?

>§ Do not be fake and superficial in your attempt to shine – bankers interact with tens of people >on a daily basis and can easily spot fake from genuine behavior

Another generalisation.
Some bankers are amazingly incisive about people, some are borderline autistic, some oscillate between those two states. As in the careers guide I wrote with Paul Wilmott you need to practice sounding enthusiastic.


>Do not overwhelm bankers with questions when they are taking a small break (i.e. chewing food) – remember they are also human beings and have had a very long day at work.

Let others do that to make you look good. Use the time to think up better questions.

But even that is weak. When you see him without sustenance, and you are not in control of the conversation, catch his eye and say "wine or juice ?". Shows that you are considerate, and you should note the choice of words for what we sales droids call "assumptive close".

You are presenting two options, either of which serves your goals. Then you can politely walk next to the great man, politely wait for the current supplicant to finish, and hand him the glass, ideally giving the impression that the current student is actually saying something interesting to show you are polite. If you've identified him as not useful to you personally,get one of your team to deliver the drink, making them look good, and showing your virtue as a leader.

>§ Do not get drunk or gobble down food in front of bankers no matter how hungry and tired you are

Actually very good advice.
The stories I hear about students and alcohol are awful, some are true.

>§ Do not be intimidated to let your personality shine – being stuck-up is never a good strategy – be pleasant, be fun, smile, and stay professional

As above you do need to practice this.

>Your aim at these sessions is not to compete with your classmates,

Yes it is, but to do it smoothly.

>Be smart about it – this is not rocket science!

I have two children, I know now how to make them smarter, send them an email telling them to "be smart". All that time wasted, never mind.

OK, lets move on to my own points:

They key to success is preparation, why a major business school doesn't say that is beyond me, probably because unlike the CQF (Certificate in Quantitative Finance) they don't have a headhunter on the faculty.

Get a list of who is coming. A little research with google and/or LinkedIn will glean useful things to make your interactions look smarter. A sharp banker may notice, but he's probably also wise enough to realise that you were the one student who took the trouble to find out who he was and what he did. That's both flattering and gives a good impression. One day you will be meeting clients, same thing applies.

Go find some girls.
Most senior bankers are men, as are bankers in general. If you're a newbie you may not have spotted that many recruiters and others who sell stuff to banks are women. Do you really think this is a coincidence ?
They should form part of your tag team.

You are their leader.
Because you read this note and they did not. Explain that you will help each other as above, and this can include pooling of cards and intelligence acquired in the melee.

A good team knows each other's strengths, and if you're going to do the tag game I mentioned above make sure you have some idea that your friend really does know something about gas prices before you put him in front of a senior trader.
Jointly identify good targets, especially the HR. Get there as early as you possibly can. HR are often the first to arrive because it's their job, and the bankers often are hard to get out of the office.
A good team needs trust, so as their leader you need to go out and kill some prey and bring it back to camp. (more evolutionary stuff). So you share what you learn from HR, and help the others pick target that suit their ends.

You will screw this up at least a bit. I'm conscious as I write this that your plan is based on something you got from guy called Dominic Connor, not your professors who wrote the original note. Learn from errors because there are other events, and if you haven't found them you're doing it wrong.

Also many people do individual tasks better if they feel part of a team. They don't like letting the side down. This is especially important here, because most people find going up to strangers and talking to them at least mildly hard. Being part of the team helps your resolve.

I mention the idea of getting a girl or two into your team, and it is at least possible that a girl reads this. No reason why a team leader should not be female, but you do have to sound enthusiastic. Quite regardless of the culture they come from, I have found women on average to sound less enthusiastic and generally to put less effort into networking. This hurts their careers.

As above, make sure you have a follow through. Many bankers will want to go home to their families, and/or be up at some hideous hour in the morning. But maybe your team identifies some younger bankers (or divorced older ones), who you can spirit away to rather better wine or food.
Ideal places have big tables, but are low on background noise.

Then you debrief the team. Cards are pooled and intelligence shared. Help each other write nice little follow up notes. If someone hasn't pulled their weight they are dead to you, and will be replaced.

It doesn't really matter if you're the leader of this temporary gang, or even if others get more out of it than you do. What matters is that you get more than you would have on your own, "we all come out ahead" is not a battle cry to lead troops into the valley of death, but good enough for a drinks party with consequences.
 
I feel like Dominic's reply should be turned into an article and archived as a sticky thread on the forum.

Well...at least most of the comments.
 
I am all for playing to win, but also realize that the kids you screw over now are not going to go work at a gas station and be forgotten about. They will break in and remember your rudeness, lack of team work and egotistical behavior. Do not be a push over, but forming a gang to stalk bankers and block out other kids is not effective, it is bullshit.


As a couple questions, get a business card and thank them for their time and move on. If it isn't a good fit for you offer to help another classmate or send them the contact. Being a ruthless SOB might have worked for Genghis Khan, but it will do you more harm than good.


Bankers are also not stupid. Surrounding them and asking endless questions is a good way to get yourself branded as the kid with no life.

The best networking is never done at these events. Hit these guys up well before, get coffee with them, connect and build a relationship. If anything career fairs should just be a touching base event and using the prebuilt connection as a way to meet other people.
 
The best networking is never done at these events. Hit these guys up well before, get coffee with them, connect and build a relationship. If anything career fairs should just be a touching base event and using the prebuilt connection as a way to meet other people.


That's aggressive. I am sure 99% of the time emailing random people for coffee will not work out.

I agree that career fairs are not the best place for networking, but you have to work with what you get.

Conferences I believe are the best place, but unfortunately most of them are VERY expensive.
 
That's aggressive. I am sure 99% of the time emailing random people for coffee will not work out.

I agree that career fairs are not the best place for networking, but you have to work with what you get.

Conferences I believe are the best place, but unfortunately most of them are VERY expensive.


Nothing aggressive about meeting fellow alumni for coffee.

Oh, sometimes I will randomly email people for fun, information or kicks. I get about a 50% response rate. When I say random I mean VP and above level. All of my friends have similar experiences. I chat with traders and sales people online also, 75% of the chats lead to phone calls. My friend is more aggressive that I am and has met up with MD's at Goldman, Morgan Stanley and JPM. Got him 2 interviews for BB IBD groups.

Investment Banking Informational Interviews | Mergers Inquisitions


I speak to alumni all the time. Never a problem.
 
@Joy, at least some of it will end up in the Quant careers guide. Including the bit about girls. I tell it like I see it, and to do my job properly I tailor advice to people, both strengths and weaknesses.

Anthony:I am all for playing to win, but also realize that the kids you screw over now are not going to go work at a gas station and be forgotten about

Wise words. I apologize if my text implied that you should screw anyone at all ever. I meant quite the reverse: find ways to help your friends, if necessary find random people, help them, maybe they will be friends after.

Maybe two questions are optimal, maybe they aren't, but you need to judge in real time, my objection was to some hard coded two q's rule.

Although Jay is right when he says :
"That's aggressive. I am sure 99% of the time emailing random people for coffee will not work out. "

He's utterly wrong in what he implies.
>99% of your job searching effort will turn out to be wasteful, unless you are sooo good that banks hunt you down and offer you a job. The job you stand 0% probabililty of getting is the one you don't try for. The odds are a bit better than 1% you get the coffee, but do the maths, you're on a quant course right ?
Your career is best modelled as a Markov chain, and is really quite sensitive to initial state. So make up some probabilities:
Say it's 1% you get the coffee, with that as a precondition, the odds of them wanting to take it further and you getting a job is circa 10%

I would randomly guess that the difference in lifetime earnings between getting the best job you can get and the 2nd best is at least 5%, it could easily be 50% or 500%, but 5% for conservative estimation.

Lifetime earnings for a quant have an NPV of (very roughly) $10MM

So...
0.01 * 0.1 * 0.05 * 10^7 = You effectively get paid 500 bucks to drink a coffee. I'll buy that.

You can plug in different numbers, you get the picture. Also, you get valuable interview practice at the coffee, that's worth thousands, valued by taking the increased probability of getting a given job.

Conferences are indeed good, which is why you see the P&D logo stuck on such a number, a couple of Baruch people went as my guests to a high frequency trading event in NY last month.
 
Nothing aggressive about meeting fellow alumni for coffee.

Oh, sometimes I will randomly email people for fun, information or kicks. I get about a 50% response rate. When I say random I mean VP and above level. All of my friends have similar experiences. I chat with traders and sales people online also, 75% of the chats lead to phone calls. My friend is more aggressive that I am and has met up with MD's at Goldman, Morgan Stanley and JPM. Got him 2 interviews for BB IBD groups.

Investment Banking Informational Interviews | Mergers Inquisitions


I speak to alumni all the time. Never a problem.


Well that's definitely good to know. I reckon after reading this there will be an onslaught of emails sent to banks.

If you mean't alumni, then I agree with the coffee part. That is a very common scenario here at Baruch. Many alumni and students go out for drinks usually and there is also a "mentoring" program wherein alumni mentor students through the ins and outs of wall-street until they can stand on their feet effectively.
 
Although Jay is right when he says :
"That's aggressive. I am sure 99% of the time emailing random people for coffee will not work out. "

He's utterly wrong in what he implies.
>99% of your job searching effort will turn out to be wasteful, unless you are sooo good that banks hunt you down and offer you a job. The job you stand 0% probabililty of getting is the one you don't try for. The odds are a bit better than 1% you get the coffee, but do the maths, you're on a quant course right ?

Conferences are indeed good, which is why you see the P&D logo stuck on such a number, a couple of Baruch people went as my guests to a high frequency trading event in NY last month.

I specifically mean't the 'coffee emails' to random senior executives at a company will almost always lead to demise. If they are alumni, then there is a high probability of success.
I said in terms of job efforts, other routes are more effective, than emails, in my OPINION.

Thanks for the pass again! :)
 
I see what you mean Joy, it's far from an optimal strategy to randomly email people, and certainly you should make it a small part of your time allocation.

I am seeing this as a sales process, and talking to alumni is what I learned to refer to as "an excuse to call". Randomly phoning and emailing is not very effective, witness the way that most firms in my business have a horde of low paid people whose job is to phone up and annoy every single person in the finance industry in alphabetical order.

Also there is an economy in scale, which is why I continue to plug the team player idea. You might have strength in commodites or programming, which is no good if they say they are looking for someone who is a whizz at econometrics and market micro structure. So you pass this lead to a friend who is better suited to that role, and it's easy to see a gang of people who are playing to win by playing as a team.
No shafting of anyone, no elbows, possibly a large phone bill, certainly a bit of time nailing a spreadsheet together with what you learn.

Be clear; this has multiple payloads, not just upping the chances of you getting a good job in a market that is still rather less than hot.

This is a team project. For many roles they want to see evidence that you are a 'good team player'. Tell them you formed a group to systematically research job openings, and it will look anything from good to excelllent. Some of you will end up in a form of sales / customer facing role, and you've just demonstrated you can build an effective sales team from people who've never sold anything except maybe in Starbucks as a summer job.

It's experience as well of course.

You also get to be useful to your classmates; a sentiment in the original note was that your fellow alumni are useful over your career, and a way of amplifying that is to show that you are a useful person to stay in contact with.
 
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