Don't laugh..but hospitality management bachelor degree?

Loisisar

New Member
Since I enjoy being tortured from time to time..I want to ask how is my chances in Financial Engineering?
I have a bachelor degree in hospitality management with GPA3.1, is it impossible for me to get into Financial engineering?
If it is impossible for now, how can I get anything closer? By a grad degree in finance or computer science?
Or MSc. Econometrics will be enough?
 

quantsmodelsbottles

Active Member
Nothing that is a tried and true path will help you. As you are an odd case, the path should you find one will be odd as well.

Maybe try consistently doing Kaggle competitions until you start doing well, if you think you are up to snuff. There's no magic bullet, this and any other method is going to take a long time
 

Onegin

Active Member
C++ Student
MIT and Columbia have (or used to have) good problem sets on their website - something like make sure you can do these before applying. Go on the rankings here, look up the pre-reqs for each of the programs, take the average, find a school close to you where you can do that work and then figure out if it’s worthwhile for you. You’ll need probably a B+ in each of those to have a chance for a top program. And get 164+ GRE Quant and A respectable verbal score. And recommendations.

I’d ask why you want to do it, but it kind of doesn’t matter. Add up the steps above, and if you do them all, you had a powerful enough reason and if you don’t you didn’t really want it. And that’s totally fine. I really enjoy the work, but it’s not super glamorous all the time.
 

Loisisar

New Member
MIT and Columbia have (or used to have) good problem sets on their website - something like make sure you can do these before applying. Go on the rankings here, look up the pre-reqs for each of the programs, take the average, find a school close to you where you can do that work and then figure out if it’s worthwhile for you. You’ll need probably a B+ in each of those to have a chance for a top program. And get 164+ GRE Quant and A respectable verbal score. And recommendations.

I’d ask why you want to do it, but it kind of doesn’t matter. Add up the steps above, and if you do them all, you had a powerful enough reason and if you don’t you didn’t really want it. And that’s totally fine. I really enjoy the work, but it’s not super glamorous all the time.
Someone told me math is a marathon for brain. And if you started at early 20s it is too late. You will really start your life at 40s and everything will be painful. He also asked me to recall my math learning path during primary school. If I didn't learn everything fast and easy, it will be a mess for me to take it up at 20s.
And I just don't believe it.
 

Daniel Duffy

C++ author, trainer
Someone told me math is a marathon for brain. And if you started at early 20s it is too late. You will really start your life at 40s and everything will be painful. He also asked me to recall my math learning path during primary school. If I didn't learn everything fast and easy, it will be a mess for me to take it up at 20s.
And I just don't believe it.
What don't you believe?
I think that 'someone' is correct. (disclaimer: I am a mathematician and I train quants in applications of mathematics to computational finance).

It takes years and years to learn maths. As Onegin says, find a college. You have to crawl before you can walk. .That's life.
 
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purpleskye

New Member
Since I enjoy being tortured from time to time..I want to ask how is my chances in Financial Engineering?
I have a bachelor degree in hospitality management with GPA3.1, is it impossible for me to get into Financial engineering?
If it is impossible for now, how can I get anything closer? By a grad degree in finance or computer science?
Or MSc. Econometrics will be enough?
It is not impossible - are you working / doing research now in a quantitative field? If you start taking more math courses, you will have a decent shot in 1-2 years, provided that your marks are higher (3.1 GPA may not be enough unfortunately). I know fundamentally MFE is different than a MBA, but some people do use it for a career switch (I did, although I came from a quant background and chose to work in a non-quant field after undergrad). You will need more time than other folks though.
 

quantsmodelsbottles

Active Member
If you're going the grad route, Math/Computer Science/MFE is definitely better than Finance. For undergrad I would still try to clear the hurdles with just one more degree and self-learn the other stuff you need to know, which you'll be able to do once you take fundamental math classes and master them. Try to get into a top program and you'll hopefully land something out of undergrad (I did coming from a semi-target). Previous adult real-world experience could help, a lot of these HYPSM newlygrads are arrogant pricks
 

Daniel Duffy

C++ author, trainer
OP still has not told us why she/he wants to get into Finance. And the aptitude for this quantitative field.
 

Daniel Duffy

C++ author, trainer
Nothing that is a tried and true path will help you. As you are an odd case, the path should you find one will be odd as well.

Maybe try consistently doing Kaggle competitions until you start doing well, if you think you are up to snuff. There's no magic bullet, this and any other method is going to take a long time
What's the added vale of Kaggle here? Without some maths background it could be very demotivating. I can't see how it would work. Besides, AFAIK kaggle is for Machine Learning and it has precious little to do with finance..
 
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Since I enjoy being tortured from time to time..I want to ask how is my chances in Financial Engineering?
I have a bachelor degree in hospitality management with GPA3.1, is it impossible for me to get into Financial engineering?
If it is impossible for now, how can I get anything closer? By a grad degree in finance or computer science?
Or MSc. Econometrics will be enough?
1. Where are you looking?
2. I know you will say "both", but is your top priority being a Quant, or is it the quant school you go to/program you get into?
3. On a scale of 1-10, where 1= micro-manage me, 7= learn by doing, 10= I only need 1 book, how well can you drive yourself, even in a lax environment?

To answer your questions:
- You only need good ability with Calculus. Not a good grade, ability, because you'll be forced to apply the concept and computation again. This is all you need to attempt an MFE.
- MSc in Econometrics is the same or better for certain roles, then MFE.

To explain my questions:
1. Hopefully, you're not only looking in the US
2. It's 2019 now. Skill/ability beats school. Getting a quant job in the industry is more important than which company (and therefore, which school)
3. In the US, you need a 4+ to make it through a program. Elsewhere 6+, since environments can be more relaxed.
 

Onegin

Active Member
C++ Student
2. It's 2019 now. Skill/ability beats school. Getting a quant job in the industry is more important than which company (and therefore, which school)
3. In the US, you need a 4+ to make it through a program. Elsewhere 6+, since environments can be more relaxed.
Would you please share your evidence for assertion #2? While I agree with the spirit of your comment, it's not clear to me practically how companies would effectively evaluate all those who might claim competence but lack formal training.

For #3, we are discussing MFE level programs, which are typically 18-24 months in duration.

You're right about the skill in calculus being more important than grades to succeed in a program. However to gain admission, in my experience, requires good grades as well. Thankfully the sets are largely overlapping between those competent and those with good grades in a subject.
 
Would you please share your evidence for assertion #2? While I agree with the spirit of your comment, it's not clear to me practically how companies would effectively evaluate all those who might claim competence but lack formal training.

For #3, we are discussing MFE level programs, which are typically 18-24 months in duration.

You're right about the skill in calculus being more important than grades to succeed in a program. However to gain admission, in my experience, requires good grades as well. Thankfully the sets are largely overlapping between those competent and those with good grades in a subject.
"those who might claim competence but lack formal training."
How do you measure competence and formal training? If we're talking about school, then both are measure through taking a certain curriculum. Calculus I is the same everywhere in the world. It's more or less fixed. This is the advantage of STEM degrees. When interviewing, no claims will work. You'll be tested. Furthermore, your in-school and side projects can vouch for your competence - if you can explain them.

"For #3, we are discussing MFE level programs, which are typically 18-24 months in duration. "
- Yes. i was referring to that random "scale of independence". Schooling elsewhere in the world can be less structured than in the US. If you thrive in structured environments, then a less-structured school could be bad for you.

You need to know how closely your level of achievement is tied to the system you're in versus how closely it's tied to you. For example, 100% of what you need in an MFE is online. YouTube will teach you all of it. Top program syllabi are there to read, and PDFs of books on any topic are available (paid or otherwise). Programming courses from zero to hero are also free. However, how may have gone from reporting analyst to quant analyst by themselves in the same 2 year timespan that an MFE takes? The level of structured environment you need to succeed is an important point.​

"However to gain admission, in my experience, requires good grades as well."
Yes. Good grades, and appropriate classes, are two components. You can have one or the other, or both. I just wouldn't stress on having a top GPA, as the path to quant doesn't have to go through certain schools, who have the applicant volume to afford how picky they are.
 

Onegin

Active Member
C++ Student
The path to quantland doesn’t have to go through certain schools, but it does.

There are outliers, heck I kind of am one. But there are a lot of disadvantages to being self taught vs having a degree that become apparent once you have a job.

I’m not up for debating how the world is vs how you think it should be.

It’s a competitive industry, where there are way more candidates than can possibly be interviewed, so school becomes a handy filter.

Of course we can learn all of this stuff on our own. It is useful to be part of a community working towards the same goal, though.

if you have any data indicating a substantial number of autodidacts make it in the field, I would be glad to adjust my view. For now, it sounds like a lot of supposition and conjecture on your part.
 
if you have any data indicating a substantial number of autodidacts make it in the field, I would be glad to adjust my view. For now, it sounds like a lot of supposition and conjecture on your part.
Where did all the current quants who don't work in the US go to school? They didn't all come to the US, then fly back to another country. The field isn't that small.

For example it was super easy to find this resume on Indeed. Random school, but appears to be a Quant. This one as well. Special MFE schools? Nope. Right studies? Yes. Now imagine the rest of the world. Here are two Quant jobs in Portugal listed on LinkedIn. Moreover, they're "Easy Apply". If you remove that filter BNP Paribas has at least a half dozen more openings. Portugal is just a random pick. These roles won't get filled by some top 25 grad who studies in the US.

I totally understand your viewpoint. I just think that if someone is trying to maximize the opportunity of becoming a Quantitative Analyst, they need to look beyond over-emphasized metrics of test scores and GPA. Those become over-emphasize because of the focus on our well-ranked US schools, and Wall Street placement. I'm not saying we should learn it on our own. I am saying that there are whole bunch of options between being self-taught and getting into Baruch. These other option aren't slow either. Furthermore, many cost less, and don't have super high barriers to entry.
 

Onegin

Active Member
C++ Student
I am in full agreement with you regarding quantitative analysis. It seems we differ in our definition of Quant.

Based on the job descriptions, it’s possible you’re defining it as someone who does quantitative analysis. The best data scientists / ML specialists I know fit your description to a T

I have in mind that a Quant is specifically someone working exclusively in the domain of finance, to either analyze the past, price the present, or forecast the future with permutations including sunsets of those. Most of those jobs are in the US, though London is kind of catching up, and there are emerging centers in India and China. Few of those places have the sheer volume of derivative trades or market makers to necessitate the level of staffing present in the US. Generally quants are buy side (asset managers / owners) or sell side (sales trading, market making, etc.)

If we expand the definition to include retail banks, consumer forecasting, or logistics optimization (like Fed Ex), then your criticisms of the rankings ring true for me. From my point of view, the rankings cover only that sorry subset of quants relegated to financial services. For those folks, location matters - need to be in a market center. And comp matters because these degrees are expensive.

Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully. Please pardon my earlier snark.
 
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