Should the quant profession have an exam track

[IlyaKEightSix]

I was out to lunch with my manager at my actuarial internship the other day and he told me this:

"Ilya, this is something that isn't often told about the actuarial exams--but they're there to keep lots of people out of the profession, to reduce the supply and increase the demand, so those that stay in the profession get paid more."

I was just thinking: should there be an exam track for would be quants? I think it could go a long way into weeding out those who can't hack it in the profession, and at the same time, offer those that *would* want to be in the profession with a cheaper and possibly quicker alternative than to shell out tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars more for higher education that may or may not get them a career (and woe upon those who don't find one with their debts!).

Perhaps an exam track such as basic prob and stat, basic finance, then more advanced derivatives based finance, then C++, stochastic calculus, and then modeling at the upper levels? I think if someone were to have a few exams, they'd show promise, and then would have a greater chance of landing a position than if the market was inundated with higher-ed people that may or may not have what it takes.

I'm not sure whether this idea would go down well with the senior quants/headhunters around here, but if we maintained the status quo from day one, we'd all still be living in caves =P

 

[alain]

Professional Exams are another way to get your money. Always keep that in mind. If you can't hack it, you get fired, regardless if you pass an exam or not.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Of course that's true. But I was wondering if there should be objective professional exams so that you can show you *can* hack it, without having to flash $50,000-$200,000 degrees in people's faces. That's a lot of money for no guarantee of a perfect occupation, on *top* of undergraduate debt.

 

[alain]

Also, remember that an exam just prove that you know the material and that you are a good test taker (or that you just got lucky the day of the exam).

A degree will show the same plus the commitment to do the degree. The latter part won't show on the exam.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Well how do you get around that without the crazy amount of debt? I am currently a broke undergraduate student already piled up in university debt when I come out. How much more can (or should) little guys like me take?

 

[alain]

I was in the hole too and I came out so, it is doable. It requires discipline and laser focus but if I did it, anybody can do it.

 

[EricFleming]

More Exams?

Would it be nice to know through a magic # or score how strong a quant is?

Yes.

But I am skeptical.

The quality of a school, GPA, degree are good indicators. And another tool: judgment after meeting the person in question.

That's my two cents.

 

[EricFleming]

Tests don't equal success

Passing a test doesn't mean you can "hack it". It means you did well on a test.

Of course that's true. But I was wondering if there should be objective professional exams so that you can show you *can* hack it, without having to flash $50,000-$200,000 degrees in people's faces. That's a lot of money for no guarantee of a perfect occupation, on *top* of undergraduate debt.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

I was in the hole too and I came out so, it is doable. It requires discipline and laser focus but if I did it, anybody can do it.

The problem being is that my father is a complete failure of a businessman that already has threatened to try and take me out of college due to financial issues with paying only about 5% of the cost every year, and my mother is a piano teacher working her tail off to make ends meet.

And as for little me, I haven't even had a job on Wall Street yet! How does that justify me shelling out a bazillion dollars for higher ed with no guarantee of landing a job, ESPECIALLY in this cut-throat environment in which people get dropped from their jobs like rocks, assuming they land them in the first place?

 

[doug reich]

It certainly doesn't help to complain about it on this board. The obvious conclusion is to get a job (to reduce your debt), build skills & qualifications (to make you easier to hire), and network. This may require moving.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

It certainly doesn't help to complain about it on this board. The obvious conclusion is to get a job (to reduce your debt), build skills & qualifications (to make you easier to hire), and network. This may require moving.

Get a job: will look for one!
Building skills and qualifications: reading Robert McDonald's derivatives book when I get free time at work, studying C++ on the weekends from scratch.
Networking: I live across the river from Philadelphia in the suburbs. Any good places to network for a quant position, and when?

 

[doug reich]

Networking: I live across the river from Philadelphia in the suburbs. Any good places to network for a quant position, and when?

Glad you're at least being facetious, if not serious.

Have you tried alumni from your school? Also try the informational interview: call up people at firms, ask them specific questions about the business and their company. Don't ask for a job.

 

[alain]

The problem being is that my father is a complete failure of a businessman that already has threatened to try and take me out of college due to financial issues with paying only about 5% of the cost every year, and my mother is a piano teacher working her tail off to make ends meet.

And as for little me, I haven't even had a job on Wall Street yet! How does that justify me shelling out a bazillion dollars for higher ed with no guarantee of landing a job, ESPECIALLY in this cut-throat environment in which people get dropped from their jobs like rocks, assuming they land them in the first place?

At least you acknowledge your situation. Now the question is, what are you going to do about it?

I can tell you what I did. I worked full time and study full time (12+ credits a semester) at the beginning of my career. I only slept 4 hours a day and eventually got used to it. Also, I didn't start in Finance. I arrived to this field by pure chance.

 

[Eugene Krel]

Ilya have you considered working as an actuary while getting an MFE degree?

 

[Nahed]

Ilya,
I make no difference between someone who has the actuarial exams or not...I make no difference between someone with a CFA or not.....The only thing that matters for me is how well would you do in your job..I see and work with people with such qualifications everyday and beleive me some of them are just dumb, don't know how to work and can't manage 3 or more tasks at a time...
Also , an exam for Fe's just to keep others from the profession is totally absurd and useless !
I don't beleive that much in those type of exams you're talking about..and it's only my strict opinion.
Life is not Fair get used to it and you have to work very hard to succeed..if everything was easy we would be living in lalaLAND = Heaven !
Nahed

 

[chrisd]

Eugene actually has a good idea. An entry level actuary position pays a pretty decent wage, with reasonable hours, so it would be feasible to study part-time, or full-time if you're particularly intense. I also know that many insurance companies give you time to study for the actuarial exams during your work day - it's possible you could study for class instead during that time, although this may not be tenable.

Also, a lot of large corporations have tuition remission programs, so there is a small chance you may be able to get your employer to pay for some of an MFE. I know that many actuaries, after they've passed all the exams, get part-time MBAs.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Ilya have you considered working as an actuary while getting an MFE degree?

Hmmm...well seeing as how I'm tired after coming from work (wake up at 7 in the morning, ride bike to train station, get on train, get to work by 9), and come back at 6 PM, I'm not sure if I can handle a full 30 credit degree under those conditions, though I've always stepped up to the task no matter what it's been.

I would like to focus on studies though...

A little off-topic:

Nahed, you remind me of my optimization professor with your writing style. What nationality are you, out of interest?

 

[Nahed]

A little off-topic:

Nahed, you remind me of my optimization professor with your writing style. What nationality are you, out of interest?

Is it a compliment ?
I'm both from Canada and Morocco....

 

[doug reich]

Hmmm...well seeing as how I'm tired after coming from work (wake up at 7 in the morning, ride bike to train station, get on train, get to work by 9), and come back at 6 PM, I'm not sure if I can handle a full 30 credit degree under those conditions, though I've always stepped up to the task no matter what it's been.

Part time != full degree. You do it in more time because you have to fit it around your normal schedule by taking a lighter load. Anyway, it'll be character building.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Is it a compliment ?
I'm both from Canada and Morocco....

Probably the biggest compliment I can think of. She's one of the best professors I've ever had, and by far the most enjoyable to be around personally.