• C++ Programming for Financial Engineering
    Highly recommended by thousands of MFE students. Covers essential C++ topics with applications to financial engineering. Learn more Join!
    Python for Finance with Intro to Data Science
    Gain practical understanding of Python to read, understand, and write professional Python code for your first day on the job. Learn more Join!
    An Intuition-Based Options Primer for FE
    Ideal for entry level positions interviews and graduate studies, specializing in options trading arbitrage and options valuation models. Learn more Join!

Slump Sinks H1-B Visa Program

Joined
5/2/06
Messages
11,750
Points
273
By MIRIAM JORDAN

A coveted visa program that feeds skilled workers to top-tier U.S. technology companies and universities is on track to leave thousands of spots unfilled for the first time since 2003, a sign of how the weak economy has eroded employment even among highly trained professionals.

The program, known as H-1B, has been a mainstay of Silicon Valley and Wall Street, where many companies have come to depend on securing visas for computer programmers from India or engineers from China. Last year, even as the recession began to bite, employers snapped up the 65,000 visas available in just one day. This year, however, as of Sept. 25 -- nearly six months after the U.S. government began accepting applications -- only 46,700 petitions had been filed.

In addition to the weak economy, companies have curbed applications in the face of anti-immigrant sentiment in Washington and rising costs associated with hiring foreign-born workers.

Usually, all visas are allocated within a month or two from April, when applications for the following fiscal year are first accepted. But this year, six months later, "you can still walk in with an application and you're still highly likely to get approved," said R. Srikrishna, senior vice president for business operations in North America for HCL Technologies Ltd., an Indian outsourcing company.

The sagging economy, which has pushed U.S. unemployment to 9.8%, has crimped expansion in the technology sector, traditionally the biggest user of the H-1B program. Julie Pearl, a corporate immigration lawyer in San Francisco, said that at least a third of her clients have cut their hiring of H-1B visa holders in half from a year ago.

"Most companies just aren't hiring as many people in general," Ms. Pearl said.

For Indian outsourcing companies, historically the largest recipients of H-1B visas, the economy as well as political pressures have prompted a cutback in applications. The recession has trimmed technology budgets at their U.S. clients; at the same time, Washington has scrutinized hiring from abroad more closely amid high unemployment at home.

Instead of bringing over Indian engineers, HCL has been hiring American employees who otherwise might have been let go by clients switching the work to HCL, Mr. Srikrishna said. Last year, HCL hired more than 1,000 employees from clients and received just 87 H-1B visas, he said.

Political pressures have come to bear among other applicants as well. Companies that receive federal bailout funds must prove they have tried to recruit American workers at prevailing wages and that foreigners aren't replacing U.S. citizens. That regulation caused Bank of America Corp., among others, to rescind job offers to dozens of foreigners.

In addition, would-be immigrants from India and China are finding new career opportunities at home as those economies grow relatively quickly while the U.S. economy sags and its political climate appears less welcoming.

Vivek Wadhwa, a visiting scholar at the University of California at Berkeley who has studied H-1B visas, said that trend has been compounded by what he sees as rising anti-immigrant sentiment in the U.S. "The best and the brightest who would normally come here are saying, 'Why do we need to go to a country where we are not welcome, where our quality of life would be less, and we would be at the bottom of the social ladder?'" Mr. Wadhwa said.

The cost and bureaucracy of applying for H-1B visas is another deterrent. Lawyers' fees, filing fees and other expenses can easily reach $5,000 per applicant.
[IMGa=left]http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/P1-AS259B_H1B_NS_20091028191218.gif[/IMGa]

And immigration lawyers say some would-be employers are put off by a crackdown on fraud. U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, which administers the H-1B program, has been dispatching inspectors on surprise company visits to verify that H-1B employees are performing the jobs on the terms specified. The fraud-detection unit in coming months is expected to inspect up to 20,000 companies with H-1Bs and other temporary worker visas.

"It's an invasive procedure that is both stressful for the employer and the foreign national employee," said Milwaukee lawyer Jerome Grzeca, whose employment-visa business is down 40% since last year.

The numbers represent a sharp turnaround for a program that many companies had complained was too stingy with its visas. Year after year, U.S. businesses braced for "visa roulette," as applications to bring in highly skilled foreign workers far outstripped demand, forcing the government to hold a lottery to award them.

High-tech companies, such as Microsoft Corp., have been lobbying Congress for years to raise the cap. At the same time, some U.S. legislators have been calling for restrictions on the program, which they say displaces American workers.

Sen. Charles Grassley, an Iowa Republican, wrote a letter this month to the new director of citizenship and immigration services, urging tighter controls on H-1B visas. In April, Mr. Grassley and Illinois Democrat Sen. Richard Durbin introduced legislation to require companies to pass more stringent labor-market tests that would ensure they make a bigger effort to hire U.S. workers.

Companies that use H-1B visas argue the market, rather than Congress, should dictate the number of visas issued. The fact that the 65,000-visa cap hasn't been reached this year shows that the market will temper demand when necessary, said Jenifer Verdery, director of work-force policy at Intel Corp., who represents a coalition of companies that use the visas.

"Contrary to the claims of H-1B critics, if importing cheap labor were the goal of H-1B visa employers, these visas would have been gone on the first day applications were accepted last spring," Ms. Verdery said. "In slow economic times, such as today, the demand decreases and the market takes over, which is as it should be."

In 2008, 44% of approved H-1B visa petitions were for foreigners working as systems analysts or programmers. The second-largest category consisted of professionals working in universities. Indians account for about half of all H-1B visa holders.

While the number of visa holders is small compared with the U.S. work force, their contribution is huge, employers say. For example, last year 35% of Microsoft's patent applications in the U.S. came from new inventions by visa and green-card holders, according to company general counsel Brad Smith.

Google Inc. also says that the H-1B program allowed it to tap top talent that was crucial to its development. India native Krishna Bharat, for example, joined the firm in 1999 through the H-1B program, and went on to earn several patents while at Google. He was credited by the company as being the key developer of its Google News service. Today, he holds the title of distinguished research scientist.

Slump Sinks Visa Program - WSJ.com
 
Silver lining: WOO! Less competition for me ^_^.

Another silver lining: more American citizens will now have the chance to join these technical positions.

Dark cloud: we might be in an economic rut going into the future if we don't retool our education systems to make sure that Google and GS and RenTec (and others) never need to rely on H-1Bs again. Of course, Jim Simons already said this two years ago, but has anybody listened? NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

At least he's retiring as CEO of RenTec now to hopefully retool our educational system with as much success as he did with his hedge fund >_<.
 
Dark cloud: we might be in an economic rut going into the future if we don't retool our education systems to make sure that Google and GS and RenTec (and others) never need to rely on H-1Bs again. Of course, Jim Simons already said this two years ago, but has anybody listened? NOOOOOOOOOOOO.
.
What is that supposed to mean " Never need to rely on H1-B".

H1-B is a way to get people into the country. If there are NO H1-Bs, those companies will get the best available talent in US.
If H1-B are available, those companies will get the best available talent in the world (which will include the ones in US good enough to compete with world's best )

So doesn't matter how much America's education improves , given a choice any CEO would want the best talent in the world.
If US doesn't let foreigners in, they will go to Europe and US will lose something as a result.
 
The point is now that H1Bs can't be filled and companies will have to rely on Americans and American citizens for not only their grunt work but their knowledge base going forward, it's best for America's educational system to get its crap together and not disappoint, and make sure that Americans are the best talent in the world, such that H1Bs become pointless.

Consider this: there's a game show called "Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader" that essentially proves just how much garbage is being taught in between first and fifth grade that even Ivy Leaguers forget this stuff. And instead of that memorization nonsense, we can instead teach more math, science, technology, and engineering that will serve as a foundation for said new generation to learn more advanced topics earlier, get into the top technical universities, and become amazing technical entrepreneurs, quants, etc... while leaving the rest of the world to its own devices.

At Lehigh, the number of business type (econ/acct/finance/mkt/etc...) majors outnumbered engineering majors 5:1.

Now of these engineering majors, not at Lehigh but at Columbia, there are people like my former high school classmate, who after majoring in FE in undergrad, went to become investment bankers rather than continuing on a technical path. (I wish her the best because i-Bankers don't get to control their own hours and when you're being worked 80 hours a week, beauty fades fast)

We import people, and then we export jobs. This is a bad mix, and at this rate, bad societal things will happen. Thus, we need to make sure that our entire educational system becomes an incubator for technical talent.

Or, you can just hear it from the man himself.

YouTube - Jim Simons discusses Math for America at the NGA
YouTube - Jim Simons discusses Math for America at the NGA part 2
YouTube - Jim Simons discusses Math for America at the NGA part three
YouTube - Jim Simons at the NGA Q and A
 
I too would be interested if you could clarify the point you are trying to make
 
1. Why would he want that? From his first post it seems that even he needs a H1.

2. How is it relevant to the topic of the forum?

He said "Less competition for me"
The topic of this post is Slump Sinks H1-B Visa Program.
You must be a M-O-R-O-N. Are u trying to become a Quant?
 
What is that supposed to mean " Never need to rely on H1-B".

H1-B is a way to get people into the country. If there are NO H1-Bs, those companies will get the best available talent in US.
If H1-B are available, those companies will get the best available talent in the world (which will include the ones in US good enough to compete with world's best )

So doesn't matter how much America's education improves , given a choice any CEO would want the best talent in the world.
If US doesn't let foreigners in, they will go to Europe and US will lose something as a result.
My view is that if you get an engineering, science, or math graduate degree from a US school, you should be REQUIRED to stay and work here for a certain period of time as I think IIT was attempting to do in India.

You must be a M-O-R-O-N. Are u trying to become a Quant?
Recommended Reading.
 
My view is that if you get an engineering, science, or math graduate degree from a US school, you should be REQUIRED to stay and work here for a certain period of time as I think IIT was attempting to do in India.
Isn't that what Singapore is doing? Their government is giving out lots of scholarships to brightest students in Southeast Asia in exchange for a few years of work after graduation. Many people simply decide to stay permanent. It's a win-win.
But the number of students coming to Singapore is too small compared to those in the US colleges. According to this article, foreign students account for 4% of total students in college or close to 600K.
 
4%? Seems like 90% to me at the graduate level. Most of my regression class is Chinese, most of my fin opt class was also Chinese.

In terms of requiring those with a technical degree to work in the U.S., I say make them citizens, however, on the flip side, legislate a certain quota in these subjects to be devoted to U.S. citizens. That way, everyone wins. We weed out those who simply want an American degree and then go back to wherever, while at the same time, encouraging home-grown engineers/mathematicians/scientists/technologists.
 
Your sample space is too small. There are much more to the college education than science and engineering fields.
What's wrong with people getting an American degree and go back if that's what they want to do all along? Education is just a business like everything else. Students pay to get a degree/knowledge. Best business attracts more clients. If you don't provide, they simply go to Europe, whatever to study.
There should not be any law to capture talents against their will. Our best hope is to provide the best incentives for foreign talents to stay. You can give them GC/citizenship for free but if they decide that other countries offer them better environment career-wise, there is not a thing you can do about it.
 
Isn't that what Singapore is doing? Their government is giving out lots of scholarships to brightest students in Southeast Asia in exchange for a few years of work after graduation. Many people simply decide to stay permanent. It's a win-win.
But the number of students coming to Singapore is too small compared to those in the US colleges. According to this article, foreign students account for 4% of total students in college or close to 600K.

Most of the Indian students coming to US universities these days are those who could not get good jobs in India. Almost all top students from IITs and good universities join companies like Google, Goldman, Microsoft etc. These companies pay a starting salary of about $25K in India, so it does not make sense to come to US for an MS.
Do you want give scholarships to the guys who come to US and ask them to stay here permanently? What are they going to contribute?
 
Most of the Indian students coming to US universities these days are those who could not get good jobs in India. Almost all top students from IITs and good universities join companies like Google, Goldman, Microsoft etc. These companies pay a starting salary of about $25K in India, so it does not make sense to come to US for an MS.
Do you want give scholarships to the guys who come to US and ask them to stay here permanently? What are they going to contribute?


Disagree. I graduated from IIT in 2005 and about 25% of my class is in US, and most of them were in top 20% of the graduating class.
And another 10% will be here once they get out of IIMs and get plum US postings.

Starting salary of $25K in India is good, but opportunities in India are still limited as compared to Wall street and there is no doubt about that. A lot of my friends worked at top banks in Mumbai (they were earning $40K after bonus in 2007), left those jobs and joined MFE programs in US. Most of them felt stifled at the kind of work they were doing, and were basically of the opinion that most of real action happens in wall street and that the india office was not doing anything important.

Similarly on the technology side, a lot of exciting work in field of nano-tech is being carried out in California, and nothing in India comes close to it. So if you want to be right where the action is, US is still the place to be for engineers.
 
Disagree. I graduated from IIT in 2005 and about 25% of my class is in US, and most of them were in top 20% of the graduating class.
And another 10% will be here once they get out of IIMs and get plum US postings.
You and your friends are going to repent this decision. You guys came in 2005 and struggling to get a decent job. Forget about plum US postings.

Starting salary of $25K in India is good, but opportunities in India are still limited as compared to Wall street and there is no doubt about that. A lot of my friends worked at top banks in Mumbai (they were earning $40K after bonus in 2007), left those jobs and joined MFE programs in US.
.
Do you know most of the MFEs are looking for a job in HongKong and Singapore. I know a guy who completed MFE in 2008 and still looking for a job in the US.

Similarly on the technology side, a lot of exciting work in field of nano-tech is being carried out in California, and nothing in India comes close to it. So if you want to be right where the action is, US is still the place to be for engineers.
California? Where in California?
 
You and your friends are going to repent this decision. You guys came in 2005 and struggling to get a decent job. Forget about plum US postings.
I know atleast 20 people who came to US around 2005 (for MS and PhD) and have really nice jobs already in all kinds of industries, not just finance.
Plus have you looked at recent international IIM placements ? They are already back on track.
Do you know most of the MFEs are looking for a job in HongKong and Singapore. I know a guy who completed MFE in 2008 and still looking for a job in the US.
I know, but it is only because of the financial crash. I am not just talking about MFEs but also MS/PhDs.
California? Where in California?
There are a lot of startups in Nano and related technologies. Especially near Stanford.
 
Back
Top