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Tiger moms and paper tigers

Joined
2/7/08
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Riveting essay in New York Magazine (albeit published in May):

While he was still an electrical-­engineering student at Berkeley in the nineties, James Hong visited the IBM campus for a series of interviews. An older Asian researcher looked over Hong’s résumé and asked him some standard questions. Then he got up without saying a word and closed the door to his office.

“Listen,” he told Hong, “I’m going to be honest with you. My generation came to this country because we wanted better for you kids. We did the best we could, leaving our homes and going to graduate school not speaking much English. If you take this job, you are just going to hit the same ceiling we did. They just see me as an Asian Ph.D., never management potential. You are going to get a job offer, but don’t take it. Your generation has to go farther than we did, otherwise we did everything for nothing.”

The researcher was talking about what some refer to as the “Bamboo Ceiling”—an invisible barrier that maintains a pyramidal racial structure throughout corporate America, with lots of Asians at junior levels, quite a few in middle management, and virtually none in the higher reaches of leadership.

The failure of Asian-Americans to become leaders in the white-collar workplace does not qualify as one of the burning social issues of our time. But it is a part of the bitter undercurrent of Asian-American life that so many Asian graduates of elite universities find that meritocracy as they have understood it comes to an abrupt end after graduation. If between 15 and 20 percent of every Ivy League class is Asian, and if the Ivy Leagues are incubators for the country’s leaders, it would stand to reason that Asians would make up some corresponding portion of the leadership class.
 
I wonder if the only way to truly be successful is to go into management. Why can't you be an elite technical researcher your whole life, and lead by example? Want to see Asian executives? Go to Japan =P. In all seriousness though, it's probably because Asians don't assert themselves to the extent Americans do. They're undoubtedly brilliant, but at some point, you have to assert yourself and say you want more. If there was no language barrier, I'd love to be managed by such kinds of Asian researchers. They're brilliant, friendly, and understanding people in my experience =).
 
Tran offers his own story as an exemplary Asian underdog. Short, not good-looking, socially inept, sexually null. “If I got a B, I would be whipped,” he remembers of his childhood. After college, he worked as an aerospace engineer at Boeing and Raytheon, but internal politics disfavored him. Five years into his career, his entire white cohort had been promoted above him. “I knew I needed to learn about social dynamics, because just working hard wasn’t cutting it.”
 
I cannot imagine many first generation immigrants, especially ones that immigrated into the USA later in their life being great managers because of the cultural and lingual difficulties. That goes well beyond asians. I would argue that any non-western europeans are at a disadvantage.

Yes, that is a good point: it goes beyond Asians and even includes some Europeans. It can be argued that even today, after a century, Poles, Italians, and Greeks constitute to some extent separate enclaves in the US. In his autobio, Lee Iacoca mentions how Henry Ford II used to introduce him as "my Italian friend."
 
Riveting essay in New York Magazine (albeit published in May):
I remember reading this back when it was published. I agreed with the overall point, however the author is over-bitter. The point about tiger-moms, over-studying, and the eventual backlash from college admissions I find to be true, but also an interesting example of a multi-participant prisoner's dilemma. Everybody wants that extra advantage, but in the end, most don't really get it and in fact it ends up hurting the group.

At the same time, the admissions office perspective is somewhat understandable - you do not want a school full of people who just study all the time, and especially not ones who do so mainly because their parents told them to.
 
I agreed with the overall point, however the author is over-bitter.

Well, he's got a point that Indians and Chinese are hired as techies (engineers, doctors, programmers) and tolerated as such. But they find there's a "glass ceiling" on how far up they can go simply because they're not, well, white. And the limited success they're allowed -- that they're wanted for (i.e. relatively low-paid technical drudges) -- is held out as proof positive of the "American dream," of the American "melting pot." Not criticising, just sayin' ....
 
Well, he's got a point that Indians and Chinese are hired as techies (engineers, doctors, programmers) and tolerated as such. But they find there's a "glass ceiling" on how far up they can go simply because they're not, well, white. And the limited success they're allowed -- that they're wanted for (i.e. relatively low-paid technical drudges) -- is held out as proof positive of the "American dream," of the American "melting pot." Not criticising, just sayin' ....
As we've been discussing here, it's more about the cultural and language differences (and probably more cultural so long as language meets a certain threshold). Some immigrants either know or learn how to play the game, although this is a relatively small proportion, at least in the Chinese/Indian/Eastern European populations. Habits are hard to shake after all.

The second generation however, is more than aptly positioned in terms of language and culture, provided they are not set back too much by their parents old school attitudes. Many second generation immigrants still do not "get it", and this is more typical of the group the author talks about. However, this is the same group that has far more potential to rectify their situation, as compared to first generation.
 
I have not observed this in the workplace. My boss is on the operating committee of my firm and reports to the CEO. He is Japanese. Of my seven peers (all MD's) one is Japanese, two are Chinese, and one is Indian. It sounds like the writer needs to do more empirical work.

OR maybe your case could be a out of the norm, you can only speak from your POV. None the less everyone has an opportunity to go out an make the life they want.
 
Ken, I think that type of assessment is a bit naive for a few reasons:
1) I get the feeling the finance is somewhat of an exception to the rule, as money talks, and some of the best of any ethnicity are attracted to the field.
2) This is not about blatant racism so much as it is about immigrant cultures that are ill-adapted to working in an American Corporate setting.

It is about working smarter and about understanding and embracing the importance of social interaction and skills that gets lost in the "study hard+get good grades=success" attitude.

I would bet that your peers are socially well adjusted and know how to navigate the world of corporate politics.
 
This is not about blatant racism so much as it is about immigrant cultures that are ill-adapted to working in an American Corporate setting.

It's not going to be blatant: it will be more subtle and insidious. This won't be redneck racism (which is actually easier to deal with). It will be hidden behind polite words, friendly smiles, and operating procedures.If the immigrant culture breeds the work ethos required to succeed at university what then suddenly makes it "ill-adapted to working in an American corporate setting?"

There's quite a simple test: take a look at the Fortune 500 and see how many Veeps and above are from a first- or second-generation immigrant background. People like the Indian chief of Citicorp are usually the exception.
 
I don't think it is racial, but more because technical people TEND to be less into office politics. Being a manager is more about relationships and office drama and someone from an engineering background might find this demeaning.

Indian and Chinese people complaining of discrimination are not going to get very far.
 
Its much harder for People of color to climb the corporate ladders in the deep south, places like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, etc. The east / west coast, depending on the industry and corporation you belong to as along as you play the game and have some decent education, can talk the talk, have the desire/energy/drive you should be able to move up the ladder regardless of your cultural,ethnic,religious background.

The Asian's actually push their kids too hard and are made to believe they are losers if they are not successful managers, which really should not be the way life should be lived. It is important to like what you do, and most technical positions in the USA pay decent wages to support family. I dont see anything wrong retiring as a Sr. Programmer/Engineer or doctor. There are lots of upper management staff that are miserable and dont show it - ever seen interviews of ex-CFO of HealthSouth.
 
If the immigrant culture breeds the work ethos required to succeed at university what then suddenly makes it "ill-adapted to working in an American corporate setting?"
From Paul Graham:
"[Working] for a big company, [...] is like reverting to high school," which in large part is popularity contest and highly political.

The Indian and Chinese immigrant cultures specifically emphasize math, science, and engineering in the belief that studying these fields is the best path to success. There are several issues with this approach:
1) It ignores social skills, a highly important component of being a manager and general success.
2) These subjects may not be what an individual is actually good at. A person may be a natural salesman with poor technical skills, but under this culture, would be forced to study something they are bad at. The result is they work twice as hard to learn the same material, which they probably dislike.
3) It can cause a backlash in admissions. Ultimately, admissions at top schools want people who are smart and passionate, not hard working over-achievers forced into a subject by their parents.
 
From Paul Graham:
"[Working] for a big company, [...] is like reverting to high school," which in large part is popularity contest and highly political.

The Indian and Chinese immigrant cultures specifically emphasize math, science, and engineering in the belief that studying these fields is the best path to success. There are several issues with this approach:
1) It ignores social skills, a highly important component of being a manager and general success.

My impression has been that Asian parents push their offspring into math, science, engineering, medicine because they realise they will have scant chance in areas dominated by whites (sales, marketing, maybe soft finance). In areas like science and engineering they'll be hired not because they're part of some in-group, or because they're "popular," but simply because they're indispensable to the continued existence of the organisation.

By way of anecdote I remember one Asian teenage telling his father he wanted to transfer to another (posher) private school because he could make better contacts there; his father responded by saying that these contacts only work for whites. The social skills don't develop in a vacuum: the assumption is you already belong to the dominant group by way of ethnicity to begin with.

I think Asians can reach middle management positions without too much trouble; after that various subtle biases start kicking in, making each subsequent promotion that little bit more difficult than it would be for their white counterparts (for whom, incidentally, it is also not easy).

None of this is criticism; just a disinterested look at what actually happens.
 
My impression has been that Asian parents push their offspring into math, science, engineering, medicine because they realise they will have scant chance in areas dominated by whites (sales, marketing, maybe soft finance). In areas like science and engineering they'll be hired not because they're part of some in-group, or because they're "popular," but simply because they're indispensable to the continued existence of the organisation.
As explained to me by my parents, the Chinese emphasis at least comes from Western domination in these areas leading to physical domination of China in recent memory. So the logic is: if these fields lead to domination, then we should study them and similarly dominate. That certainly makes sense if you are in China where you grow up in the culture and therefore know how to play THAT game.

Your explanation is also partly true - the parents don't "realize" so much as they "assume". And despite being heavily Americanized, I still take the attitude that you can't rely purely on social skills. But I still actively try to develop them nonetheless, as a social edge is still an edge.

By way of anecdote I remember one Asian teenage telling his father he wanted to transfer to another (posher) private school because he could make better contacts there; his father responded by saying that these contacts only work for whites. The social skills don't develop in a vacuum: the assumption is you already belong to the dominant group by way of ethnicity to begin with.
Your anecdote demonstrates several things that are wrong with the Asian attitude:
1) Parents actively denying a chance to develop social skills.
2) Subtle racism on the part of the parents. Yes, that is Asians being racist against others.

Let me paint you a picture (albeit a somewhat extreme one):
You were born in America, but your parents immigrated here from China 2 years before you were born. Because of this, their English is not great and they have not (and will never) fully assimilate into American culture. As you grow up, your parents force you to study for school, dramatically cutting short your interactions with others. On top of studying for your "normal" school, you study for Chinese school, which happens every weekend (or more often in some cases). Oh and by the way, you are taking both violin and piano lessons.

Throughout your childhood, your parents make both blatant and subtle racist remarks, and the underlying prejudices make it into your set of beliefs. After all (they say), China is going to rule the world. They encourage you to make more Chinese friends and take little interest in anybody else. Though you might have easily made friends with people of other ethnicities, your attitude cuts the set of people down to those who are willing to plow through the negativity. When your parents take you to social gatherings, 95% of the time, everybody is Chinese. The rest of the time, whenever you want to hang out with non-Chinese, it is more or less up to you to try and make it happen (your parents don't have the interest or time to help you). You are forbidden from dating, as that's just the old-fashioned way, whether your interest is Chinese or not.

Middle school and beyond, it only gets worse as the work piles up and actually starts to matter. Since you aren't THAT brilliant, your parents make up for it by making you work twice as hard. In addition, your parents have heard from others about the checklist for college admissions: you need to do so and so extracurricular activities, you need so many community service hours, you need to start studying for the SATs.

When you have choices that allow you to improve your social skills (a leadership camp, going to a better school), your parents predictably refuse you with the excuses: social skills are too soft and won't get you a job, networking only works for whites anyways, and besides these things are made just to make money anyways.

The grand plan succeeds brilliantly and you get into one of HYPS. (Alternatively, the grand plan FAILS because you are not that brilliant, are clearly trying to game the admissions system, and have no real passion for anything). Now with a new found sense of freedom from your parents, you have a choice. Since you aren't THAT brilliant, you can either socialize and get mediocre grades, or you can work hard and get good grades. If you DO choose to socialize, you'll primarily hang out with other Chinese like you, thereby reinforcing that particular set of social habits.

Then you go to work for a big corporation as an engineer. You get passed over for promotion to management because, let's face it, you're really just not a leader. Your network can't really help you because they also aren't really leaders so never got into management roles.

I wove this narrative together from what I've seen, both first and second-hand, as well with some extrapolation.

In my opinion, far more needs to change in the Asian community than in the white one. Sure there's going to be racism from whites to Asians, but Asians shoot themselves in the foot so much in this regard that it's just implausible to lay the majority of the blame on whites. You're in America after all, and while there should be efforts to make positive changes, you are not going to turn America into China.

It may seem that there's way too much "Your parents..." in this, but that is a key thread in this discussion (filial piety and all that). If you should respect your parents, and your parents are subtly (or blatantly) racist and just want you to study all the time, most people in that situation would go along with it.
 
My parents doesn't care what I remember or know, they just want me to ace every class. I remember getting a 99 in one of my math classes and my mom wanted to know why I didn't get a 100. I explained to her that the teacher did not believe in perfection so he never give 100 (even though I did not get a single problem wrong in that quarter). She said too bad, try to get a 100 next time.

It was a turning point in my life because I realized that they had no clue about my study and they only cared about getting good grades.
 
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