wall street to cut 80,000 jobs

Meredith is known for her pessimistic tone. Her call to fame was the report on Citigroup which turned out to be very accurate.
Whether it turns out to be a double dip like her prediction, it's prudent for people seeking to do an MFE to have a contingency plan.
Last thing we need is another influx of disillusioned graduates who cry all the way home with a broken dream. And a large loan they can't repay.
 
You ever thought about being a lawyer?

No :) But I've read a lot of deal prospectuses (legal documents) which usually are 300-400 pages long and there are 4-5 pages with meaningful information. Thus, it's not hard to find a tricky line just by glancing at the text ;)

On the other note, it's possible that firms will cut 80,000 jobs, but most of those jobs will be retail sales etc. Smart people are still rare on the Street, so MFE students/applicants - don't worry, you will be fine if you know what are you doing.
 
what do you mean by "retail sales"? I am also a bit more concerned on the sales and trading side of things given that volumes are very low now after a very good first quarter. No sign of these picking up any time soon.

No :) But I've read a lot of deal prospectuses (legal documents) which usually are 300-400 pages long and there are 4-5 pages with meaningful information. Thus, it's not hard to find a tricky line just by glancing at the text ;)

On the other note, it's possible that firms will cut 80,000 jobs, but most of those jobs will be retail sales etc. Smart people are still rare on the Street, so MFE students/applicants - don't worry, you will be fine if you know what are you doing.
 
On the other note, it's possible that firms will cut 80,000 jobs, but most of those jobs will be retail sales etc. Smart people are still rare on the Street, so MFE students/applicants - don't worry, you will be fine if you know what are you doing.

Well the students from India put up their family homes as collateral for the $100K loan to get the MFE degree. If they can't get a job or no US company is willing to sponsor their work permit, the bank WILL take their home and leave their family homeless. The bank doesn't care about US recession or US visa restrictions. They only want their money back.

I think the students have a responsibility to do due diligence and to contact the international students at the university to find out the true story about jobs for international students. The universities are conveniently not revealing much information about placement statistics. These poor guys will go back home with shattered dreams, $100K debt, and a diploma which cannot get them a job.
 
don't do MFE. there are too many of them out there, as a result it becomes less and less valuable (number of mfe graduates growth way faster than the number of quant openings on the market).
 
what do you mean by "retail sales"?

Well, it's something like when you sit at the bank and try to sell some mortgage backed securities to someone who is opening savings account.


...students from India put up their family homes as collateral for the $100K loan to get the MFE degree...

If they put their family welfare at risk and don't make a proper research I don't think any financial institution will want to hire them.
 
Well the students from India put up their family homes as collateral for the $100K loan to get the MFE degree.
How many students do that? Only a stupid family will agree to this. Economy is booming in India and there are jobs everywhere for engineering/science graduates. Those who get such loans must be greedy.
 
How many students do that? Only a stupid family will agree to this. Economy is booming in India and there are jobs everywhere for engineering/science graduates. Those who get such loans must be greedy.

Actually, over 90% of the Indian students who come for MFE take loans through banks like Global Student Loan Corporation (GSLC) (see Baruch MFE website, it is the only lender for no-cosigner loans). Less than 10% of the students have the cash to pay the tuition without taking a loan. The Indian government does not provide any student loans, so they have to take the loans through the banks.

The are not greedy, just stupid. Indian parents will save all their lives to buy a house, then they will put up their house as collateral so their child can get a loan to come and do MFE / MBA. These guys come to a recession-hit USA economy with very few companies willing to sponsor student visas and end up with $100K debt which they cannot repay. There are schools like CMU, Berkeley, and Baruch where the international students are able to get jobs and work visa sponsorship, but at the vast marjority of the schools, the international students are getting properly screwed.

This warning which was given in a quantnet review by a student at Illinois Institute of Technology, says it most accurately:

http://www.quantnet.com/review-iit-ms-finance-program/

WARNING TO ALL STUDENTS WHO ARE NOT AMERICAN OR GREEN CARD HOLDERS!!! This school might not be honest with you about employment prospects after graduation. The US economy (particularly financial services) is in terrible shape at the moment. Small firms will likely pass on you if they need to sponsor your H1B Visa. A lot of of my classmates have had very tough times finding US employment (at least in Chicago), and have had to return to countries of origin. You will have to be pretty good to get picked up by a firm in the current environment. Don’t expect careers services at IIT to place you. If you can legally work in the US, and have some work experience, you will likely get a lot out of this program. Some of my classmates are doing well.
 
Actually, over 90% of the Indian students who come for MFE take loans through banks like Global Student Loan Corporation (GSLC) (see Baruch MFE website, it is the only lender for no-cosigner loans). Less than 10% of the students have the cash to pay the tuition without taking a loan.
These students must be the kids of corrupt government officials or corrupt businessmen who don't pay their taxes. These guys have lot of money(imagine you pay $200 USD to get a driving license) These guys can't show any $$$ in their bank account when they go to US consulate for student visa. So they just show their home as collateral.
Did any of those students returned to India after MFE or their family members committed suicide because they lost their home?
 
These students must be the kids of corrupt government officials or corrupt businessmen who don't pay their taxes. These guys have lot of money(imagine you pay $200 USD to get a driving license) These guys can't show any $$$ in their bank account when they go to US consulate for student visa. So they just show their home as collateral.
Did any of those students returned to India after MFE or their family members committed suicide because they lost their home?

This is true. Many of the government officials and businessmen in India sleep on mattresses stuffed with cash. Maybe these MFE / MBA guys are from there. In that case, $100K debt will be loose change for them.
 

DominiConnor

Quant Headhunter
There are actually several questions here when working out in an MFE is a 'good' investment.

1: Does it have a positive expectation of returns.
Yes, but note the word expectation, interpret everything I write here in math finance terms, not ordinary English.

2: Is it the optimal investment for me ?
Almost certainly not.
I can say this even though I don't know you. The problem is that it's very very hard to work out what will be good over the 40 years you will be getting returns from this investment.

3: What does it do to my risk ?
Almost no one asks this, which is bad.
Education has the effect of reducing your downside risk, and increasing the optionality of any given situation. Although Real Ooption Theory is barely covered on most MFEs, the intuitions you gain are critical to optimising your career.
At some point you will be screwed over by the market, your boss, changes in technology, regulation, the economy, or your country going to war. That's a fact. Arts graduates and evangelicals lack the depth to understand that the world of 2025 will be very different. I have no idea what will come to get you, but it's already on it's way.
I'm 48, and even now from time to time I find my brain going back over decades of shit I learned for no obvious reason, and finding it useful. If I knew more, I'd be richer.

4: Are you personally good at this stuff ?
Some people I know make good money out of really dismal lines of work, because they are masters of it. Even in the boom, some people with good qualifications struggled because they weren't in a line of work that they could beat others.

5:Are you foreign ?
Banking is spreading out, both in terms of the people who do it, and where it is done. China has a more primitive banking system than Zimbabwe, that's going to change, India is better but in no way good, that needs to change as well. But for a a long time, most money will be made in London, NY etc. Can you work the visa system ? What is your plan B ?

6. Do you speak English ?
I've spoken with Dan Stefanica on this topic, and been reassured that Baruch is taking a tough love approach to this. If you can't speak English you're fucked in this line of work. Some universities take a softer line, and turn out semi educated peasants.

7. Do you cheat at the coursework ?
I'm impressed by high quality cheating, google on Ed Thorpe Claude Shannon Shoe Computer for that. But last night I dined with the head of maths at one of the top 10 global universities, and was treated to a list of very low quality cheating. Cut & paste, commissioned course work, "group efforts", etc. He wouldn't tell me names of course, but I rather think that P&D might invest a little time on this.
A degree from a top school can easily cost more than a Porsche. Cheating is like pissing in the
fuel tank to save money. Getting a more clued up classmate to help is rational, but in this game your only real capital is what you understand, not what you can google. Everyone else can google, you can't beat them that way.
 

dstefan

Baruch MFE Director
6. Do you speak English ?
I've spoken with Dan Stefanica on this topic, and been reassured that Baruch is taking a tough love approach to this. If you can't speak English you're fucked in this line of work. Some universities take a softer line, and turn out semi educated peasants.

Great post, Dominic! Great - and, indeed, anybody thinking about doing an MFE, and in particular people from abroad, should read it, and try to understand it.

As for our approach to knowing English, we interview everyone before offering admission. Thus, we will know first hand how good your communication skills in English are, including how well you understand spoken English. We do not require Toefl scores anymore since we will take the time to check your command of English.

As an aside, I have been impressed in recent years by the command of English of young people from China. They speak a much better and fluent English than people who graduated ten years ago, for example, even after those people studied in the US.
 

atreides

Graduate Student
A quote for the times.

A degree from a top school can easily cost more than a Porsche. Cheating is like pissing in the fuel tank to save money. Getting a more clued up classmate to help is rational, but in this game your only real capital is what you understand, not what you can google. Everyone else can google, you can't beat them that way.
 
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