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What is an entry-level trader's annual salary supposed to be?

IlyaKEightSix

Joined
6/6/08
Messages
1,194
Points
58
Dear pals at QN,

I'm expecting an offer soon for a trader/analyst position. The position requires 80 hours a week (annualized that's 4000 hours).

What should I expect for an annual salary + bonus if, in the worst case, I have to pay for my own insurance?

Edit: I'd think that when considering car payments for a suburban position, that living + car expenses would equal living expenses in a more metropolitan area.
 
Can you provide some more details about the position? I believe Trader Assistant at some good shops/desks starts at 40-60K base plus bonus and benefits. If you are a Full Trader, sky is the limit, figuratively. You probably don't get a base and you pay for your own lunch. Yum! \\:D/
 
Let's just say worst case scenario. No bonus, and, say, a two year vetting period before taking part in the firm's upside.
 
9 to 10:30. 6 days a week. So 81 hours a week. Maybe one hour less on one day. Go to the gym before work.

9 to 5 is 40 hours a week.

100 hours a week...I guess that'd be the whole week at that rate, and 1 more hour on each day except the last. Yowza. You better like what you're doing to be at it that long.

That said, if the money's good enough, I can pull those kinds of hours while I'm young.
 
joyryde said:
80 hours a week. holy ****.

Is this normal?
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12-14 hours per day, 6 days per week, is normal for starters.

Check out some example hours at CME: http://www.cmegroup.com/trading_hours/index.html

If a market opens between 9:30-4:00, you should expect to show up before opening and leave later after closing. ;)

Also, some shops/desks trade in the Asian/European market so you will probably learn to adjust to a much different lifestyle.
 
IlyaKEightSix said:
And is the normal pay for such kinds of positions $40,000 with no bonus and benefits?
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You'll probably receive discretionary bonus. I don't want to paint this with a wide brush. You have to provide more information about the position. One thing for certain is that there isn't much space for salary negotiation. You might get a few K for relocation/bonus, etc.
 
IlyaKEightSix said:
And is the normal pay for such kinds of positions $40,000 with no bonus and benefits?
Click to expand...

Not if they're trying to be competitive with the typical NYC investment bank's analyst program. $50K-$70K + benefits is a pretty reasonable number for the first year for someone straight out of undergrad working 70 hours/week. Tack on $10K if you come in with an applicable MS. Naturally, I can't go into bonuses.

For $40K/year and 80 hours a week (Barely clearing the hurdle of minimum wage and overtime laws), I would be looking for a bonus that was specifically a percentage of net trading revenues rather than being purely discretionary. Then again, if I didn't already have a job or another job offer lined up, I wouldn't be in as strong a position to demand higher pay.
 
Well, that's the offer. $42k, partaking in upside is only after being vetted twice (aka going for two years), no benefits.

And this with Lehigh student loans and my MS degree debt.

And they're giving me until 2/22 to decide.

Should I just email them right back with a rejection, or try to negotiate that?

I mean when they asked me my expected compensation, I said enough to pay my student loans, costs of living, and to live as a dignified person.

I mean considering the average salary for a starting out info systems engineer out of Lehigh is $57k (and that's without a master's), I just find myself being quite surprised.
 
Negotiate what? The base? Haha. They'll probably tell you to get lost. You can ask the current traders how much bonus you can expect. Two years? That's a long time. I hope you are not required to contribute your own capital.
 
No. No own capital required. Seems I have no room for negotiation huh...

Wow. K. I'll email some others and see what they say.
 
What do your other prospects look like? Can you land a job somewhere else that pays more than $14/hour? That should be pretty easy to do if you've got a master's.
 
I'm working with recruiters, so the moment I get a new phone, I'll give all of them a touch-base. Odds are, I'll still get the "dude, still early" response.

And this position is less than $14.00 an hour. More like $10.50. So yeah. I definitely can.
 
This does sound to me more like a trainee position in one of those sweat shop trading operations. I doubt you will get to trade at any point in the near future.
Working full-time with no benefit for a 42K with 2 year lock in at a minimum? Make sure you can afford adequate health insurance.

What else? Bring your own lunch, office supply?

It would be nice to have an offer, any offer when you are poor and desperate but ask yourself, if this is something you want to do for 2 years and what do you have to show for it.
 
It would be difficult trying to live in NY or the tri state area with that sort of income. Maybe the first offer might not be the best offer..Maybe you should keep looking. Armed with a BS/MS you should be getting more than $42k.

Then again, if your other prospects look good, then say no to them. Can you negotiate a sign 0n bonus?


IlyaKEightSix said:
I'm working with recruiters, so the moment I get a new phone, I'll give all of them a touch-base. Odds are, I'll still get the "dude, still early" response.

And this position is less than $14.00 an hour. More like $10.50. So yeah. I definitely can.
Click to expand...
 
This sounds like the salary of a clerk/assistant. At least, that is what a friend of mine was paid when starting out (at a legitimate shop, one you've probably heard of). The % of people who make it from there to being a full-on trader is very low, although the rewards can be significant if you do get there.

I will add that it's hard to have a good picture because there can be such a wide range, especially if you're not going to work at a bulge bracket, which sounds like the case.
 
You realize that you can make $10.50/hour as a PhD student, right?

Now that I think about it, given the requirements and the pay, there are plenty of alternatives to this that will mean a less painful existence, such as joining the Marines or the IDF, working in food service, or even getting a Math PhD. If you can get $15/hour or if they are willing to discuss potential bonuses with you, that changes things a little, but otherwise, the armed services pay more in the aggregate if you can land an appointment as an officer (decent chance if you have a Master's and seem relatively mature), you'll work less (more like 70 hours/week), and there will be good exit opps, too. It will also be less stressful to get shot at by insurgents in Afghanistan than to work with traders at many prop shops. At least the insurgents have bad aim and can't scream to the point of causing permanent hearing loss when they (usually incorrectly) assert your model is incorrectly showing them losing money.

At the very least, have you sent applications in to TransCanada, BP, Shell, Exelon, and the other Fortune 500 firms (think utilities, pipelines, and firms that deal with commodities) that have HUGE but lesser-known trading operations? It doesn't sound as cool as trading in New York, but you get some pretty amazing experience and the pay is pretty good, too.
 
iddqd said:
This sounds like the salary of a clerk/assistant. At least, that is what a friend of mine was paid when starting out (at a legitimate shop, one you've probably heard of). The % of people who make it from there to being a full-on trader is very low, although the rewards can be significant if you do get there.
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It makes sense. These shops give you 2 years to demonstrate that you can trade. If you are not profitable, you might get "asked" to work in research or other capacities afterwards.

Also, if you decide that the career isn't right, you sure can walk out the door to another company. A Trader Assistant are not valuable enough for them to invoke the non compete clause of your contract.
 
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