COMPARE CMU MSCF vs Columbia MAFN

[cxiao]

I'm currently in MAFN... you should go to CMU.

Enough said lol

 

[SpaceMarine]

Hi all,

I thought this might be a related thread to post my question. I'm an European engineering undergrad and I got admission into CMU MSCF and a couple other top European MFin programs.

From a university stand point, I would love to attend CMU (Pitts) because of the American campus life and the NYC opportunity. The European MFins place all really well into BB S&T, but it would be impossible to go to NYC after that.

My question to students, graduates and recruiters among the community: how realistic is the goal to end up in S&T as an MSCF? I heard that DB/Citi/BNP/UBS actively recruit from the MSCF for their rotational S&T analyst programs. But I also heard (from a current student) that getting into that kind of program is very challenging, as there are only a few spots to be filled each year (like 10-20 positions, and there are 80-90 students).

Really appreciate your insights and many thanks in advance.

 

[sharonliang]

Hi all,

I thought this might be a related thread to post my question. I'm an European engineering undergrad and I got admission into CMU MSCF and a couple other top European MFin programs.

My goal is to become a BB trader. Period. No quant, no research, no risk, no nothing. I have already done an internship in S&T, plus an internship in FX risk; both at a BB in Europe.

From a university stand point, I would love to attend CMU (Pitts) because of the American campus life and the NYC opportunity. But I fear that such a highly specialized degree would prevent me from becoming a trader at a BB, because after all, trading itself is not thaaat quantitative. The European MFins place all really well into BB trading, but it would be impossible to go to NYC after that.

My question to CMU MSCF students, graduates and recruiters among the community: how realistic is the goal to become a BB trader upon graduation? I heard that DB/Citi/BNP/UBS actively recruit from the MSCF for their rotational S&T analyst programs, which ultimately can lead to a trading position. But I also heard (from a current student) that getting into that kind of program is very unlikely, as there are only a few spots to be filled by MSCF students each year (like 10-20 positions, and there are 80-90 students).

So the question again: How realistic is the goal to become a BB trader with the MSCF degree?

How cut-throat is the competition in the MSCF program for those positions?

Really appreciate your insights and many thanks in advance.

According to the director of MSCF, half of the student in this program go to the S & T department in big sell-side banks like JPM, GS. So, I don't think you should worry whether you can get this kind of positions after graduation. Well, my situation is just the opposite, I prefer positions that are more stable cause I am a girl. In addition, I think NY campus will be better for you to get in to BB. I also want to get into BB, but I prefer research or risk positions.

 

[sharonliang]

I'm currently in MAFN... you should go to CMU.

Can you tell me why?
I think MAFN program allow student to choose courses according to their needs and this is a great advantage. Also, I think, if I find my job not satisfying, I could use MAFN degree to apply for phD, right?

 

[SpaceMarine]

According to the director of MSCF, half of the student in this program go to the S & T department in big sell-side banks like JPM, GS. So, I don't think you should worry whether you can get this kind of positions after graduation. Well, my situation is just the opposite, I prefer positions that are more stable cause I am a girl. In addition, I think NY campus will be better for you to get in to BB. I also want to get into BB, but I prefer research or risk positions.

Hi, thanks for your reply.

Well, hopefully there will be many girls in the program ;-)

Where did you get that 50% number? If from the MSCF promotion video, then I would say that number is quite dated. On the current website, you can see a 31% number for S&T. However, there is also a 21% number for research, and depending on your definition, research might or might not belong to S&T. But when I talked to an alum, she said that the S&T number might be only 20%. I also talked to two MSCF career counselors, one of them said it's absolutely doable to get into BB trading from the MSCF, while the other said there are fewer and fewer sellside opportunities every year... I mean, you explain it me First of all, what exactly is the MCSF-definition of the term "S&T"? And were those 31% of students placed into direct positions on a certain desk, or were they placed into a rotational analyst program?

I have to say I'm even more confused after talking to so many people affiliated with the program... thus I'd be extremely thankful if some current or former students can share some detailed information on BB S&T placement.

Best.

 

[SpaceMarine]

Can you tell me why?
I think MAFN program allow student to choose courses according to their needs and this is a great advantage. Also, I think, if I find my job not satisfying, I could use MAFN degree to apply for phD, right?

Oh sorry btw for co-using your thread, I thought CMU placement questions might interest you as well, but if you prefer me to start a separate thread then let me know.

 

[sharonliang]

Oh sorry btw for co-using your thread, I thought CMU placement questions might interest you as well, but if you prefer me to start a separate thread then let me know.

Well, never mind. I would like to see opinions about CMU MSCF program so that I could make a wise decision. I talked to several students who has been admitted to CMU this year, and I am surprised to find it is true that Cornell has a lot of students go to the S & T department. But CMU's placement in S & T has decreased.

 

[mhy]

Well, never mind. I would like to see opinions about CMU MSCF program so that I could make a wise decision. I talked to several students who has been admitted to CMU this year, and I am surprised to find it is true that Cornell has a lot of students go to the S & T department. But CMU's placement in S & T has decreased.

This is no surprise. Banks are shoring up their risk departments and cutting S&T where it is not profitable (ex. UBS fixed income exit)

 

[QTMGMT]

First of all, don't mistake anecdotes and speculation for evidence. It's hard to imagine that conversations with a few students are going to meaningfully highlight differences in employment prospects between the two programs.

As there are very few jobs that can be neatly categorized the way CMU has attempted, I would take take those proportions with a grain of salt and recognize that they are open to interpretation. You have verified that it is indeed possible to go to S&T from Cornell, and I assure you that it is also possible coming from CMU.

I bet that S&T positions are down at every school, because that is a structural shift in the industry. Some of those are going to risk, some to hedge funds, some to large asset managers.

From the info I was quickly able to pull up on the internet for Cornell, the employment prospects (at least the numbers that are presented) look pretty starkly in favor of CMU grads. On average of course.

 

[pingu]

But everyone has a different angle. To people who only care about finding jobs, CMU will be the no doubt choice. But I am not sure if I would pursue a phD degree when I worked 2-5 years and find I don't like my job. Also, I care about campus life~

You are not getting into a decent PhD after working 5 years in the industry. Come back down to reality.

 

[mhy]

I also wouldn't worry about having less career opps in Pitts than in NYC. The only advantage that people in NYC might have is that they could theoretically set up casual in-person meetings with alums and practitioners; but seriously, who does that? From what I have read and heard from many sources so far: Nobody ever.

This is mostly because 80% of the students are fresh out of school (and international) and have no idea how 'networking' in the US works.

 

[TehRaio]

You are not getting into a decent PhD after working 5 years in the industry. Come back down to reality.

what about 2-3 years?

 

[pingu]

what about 2-3 years?

Your odds might increase by 2.5%.

 

[TehRaio]

Your odds might increase by 2.5%.

That's weird, I was under the assumption that work experience in quantitative finance was valued by Finance programs.
can someone else corroborate this? I'd very much interested in hearing about more of this.

 

[C S]

So, how does it work?

It's probably easier for you to explain how you think it works and then we can "correct" you to the "American style". I think you won't have much of an issue if you're European. It's mostly the Chinese students that have problems.

From my outsider view of Chinese networking, it seems Chinese consider just being formally connected the same as "networking".

For example, someone that never spoke to me, only knew me through a common friend and being in the same program, asked me to edit his very long statement of purpose to PhD programs. He also seemed to expect me to carefully help him plan out his options and strategy for approaching the programs. We never spoke to each other, but the impression I got is that if I were Chinese, I might actually do all this for him for some reason. I don't know why I would but then again I'm not Chinese. This happened to me several times.

As another example, I would often see Chinese students get excited that there was some alumni connection, and then when the alum would show up to meet us, they'd do everything basically to show they were not knowledgable about the industry, lacked passion or real interest, etc., but somehow they thought this alum would go the extra mile to help them get jobs. The idea that they needed to do something to impress him/her seemed to be foreign to them. They seemed to think merely being connected was enough.

 

[Gavin L]

This is terribly off-thread but - why is it that risk management is looked upon as inferior to sales/trading? Obviously their worth is hard to measure, unlike a P/L for example. Anything else? Just tradition that has put them lower on the quant-social ladder?

 

[Francis Chan]

@Stefan Du @sharonliang

Do you know last year, there was also a couple admitted into CMU? They are from WHU. That's interesting, maybe CMU AdCom is good at selecting couples, Haha! just kidding...

Anyway, but I don't think you should concern much about the location difference. IMO, whatever Pitts or NYC, both would not limit your development in this program.

If I were you, I would like to choose Pitts, just because I don't like online education, though all lectures are the same, I believe I can do better in class. But if you really want to network or do some part-time, NYC obviously is better.

 

[C S]

This is terribly off-thread but - why is it that risk management is looked upon as inferior to sales/trading? Obviously their worth is hard to measure, unlike a P/L for example. Anything else? Just tradition that has put them lower on the quant-social ladder?

You just hit the nail. "Their worth is hard to measure".

Obviously if your contribution isn't as clear, you aren't going to share as much in the profit sharing. And money is the key driver of respect on the Street. It doesn't matter if you're doing trading or IT or risk or where you work. Show me the money.

 

[sharonliang]

It's probably easier for you to explain how you think it works and then we can "correct" you to the "American style". I think you won't have much of an issue if you're European. It's mostly the Chinese students that have problems.

From my outsider view of Chinese networking, it seems Chinese consider just being formally connected the same as "networking".

For example, someone that never spoke to me, only knew me through a common friend and being in the same program, asked me to edit his very long statement of purpose to PhD programs. He also seemed to expect me to carefully help him plan out his options and strategy for approaching the programs. We never spoke to each other, but the impression I got is that if I were Chinese, I might actually do all this for him for some reason. I don't know why I would but then again I'm not Chinese. This happened to me several times.

As another example, I would often see Chinese students get excited that there was some alumni connection, and then when the alum would show up to meet us, they'd do everything basically to show they were not knowledgable about the industry, lacked passion or real interest, etc., but somehow they thought this alum would go the extra mile to help them get jobs. The idea that they needed to do something to impress him/her seemed to be foreign to them. They seemed to think merely being connected was enough.

Vivid examples. I think this is so because many Chinese students are fresh graduates and lack of resources. So, they try to grab the opportunities, but just in the wrong way~!

 

[mhy]

Vivid examples. I think this is so because many Chinese students are fresh graduates and lack of resources. So, they try to grab the opportunities, but just in the wrong way~!

It's terrible, though. You only get one chance at a first impression, and if you fuck it up, good luck.
Schools should require a business / networking etiquette class before the program starts. Maybe do it the summer before.