CMU MSCF or Columbia MSOR for PhD later?

[MartingaleOpt]

So I have been admitted into both CMU's MSCF as well as Columbia's MSOR program. I applied to several PhD programs but did not get accepted. I'm fairly committed to the goal of getting a PhD in mathematical finance, so I originally thought that the MSOR would be the better bet (as I could take the PhD level courses instead of the Masters and then apply later). However, my concern is that supposing I do not get in to a PhD program, I will have to enter the workforce, and CMU has *much* better placement than the MSOR program. Do any CMU graduates go on to do a PhD? I feel that CMU is very much more applied than the MSOR (if taking PhD-level courses), but at the same time I do not want to shoehorn myself into industry work. However, I am concerned about the risk of not getting in anywhere and simply being stuck with sub-par placement from the MSOR. Can anyone provide any guidance based on knowledge of PhD placement from CMU/Columbia? My end goal would essentially be a high-level modelling position in the industry (which tend to be reserved for PhDs) and/or going into academia afterwards.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

I'm afraid these master programs are professional and prepare you for a job, not for PhD program. I'm sure you already aware of that.
As for placement into PhD programs after the master, data is hard to come by since they don't really track it or grouped together with those not looking for job.
Another matter is how the PhD admission would look at those coming out of these terminal degrees. If you are not accepted into PhD program right now, it is not helping you much credential-wise.

I suggestion is that you should work a few years, get a sense of the industry, see where you want to be long term career wise. What you think you know now and what you think you want to do for the rest of your life now may well change after a year or two working.

 

[Quant4Life]

Andy is right. I've been wondering the same thing. I'm admitted into a few top MFE programs as well as phd in Fin math at Florida state. Even NYU's program, which is more mathematical then other programs, states that it's not good if you want to go into phd. If you want phd in this field then you gotta do MS in pure math or statistics, applied could work too not as preferred. Otherwise FinMath at Florida is a good academic oriented MFE program. Their program is pretty much MS and PhD in mathematics with a bunch of MFE classes. Otherwise any MS in math at chicago, mit, nyu would be a good route to get into top phd programs. BTW @Andy Nguyen I contacted FSU's program director and he gave me some info on job placements. I'll create a new thread for it.

 

[C S]

Otherwise FinMath at Florida is a good academic oriented MFE program. Their program is pretty much MS and PhD in mathematics with a bunch of MFE classes. Otherwise any MS in math at chicago, mit, nyu would be a good route to get into top phd programs

Ugh. Where do I even begin.

MIT does not have a masters program in math. Neither does Chicago ( in the academic sense; they do have their professional masters in fin math). Many of the elite schools do not have masters programs in math. Even the ones that do, do not offer it as prep for a PhD.

There is a substantial level of difference between students in masters programs and those that drop out ABD from PhD programs.

 

[Quant4Life]

I guess I never looked specifically at Chicago and MIT or other schools. But I know NYU does offer MS in math. Their websites specifically indicates that students interested in PhD should not apply to MathFin program but to their MS in math, as it's intended to prepare well for PhD in math.

 

[C S]

I guess I never looked specifically at Chicago and MIT or other schools. But I know NYU does offer MS in math. Their websites specifically indicates that students interested in PhD should not apply to MathFin program but to their MS in math, as it's intended to prepare well for PhD in math.

Yes NYU offers MS in math. But they definitely do not ask those wanting a PhD to apply to MS program. Their MS program is advertised as a terminal degree, plain and simple. From http://math.nyu.edu/degree/ms/ :

"Students in the Ph.D. program will earn a master's degree while in progress toward the Ph.D. For students interested in a terminal master's degree, the Department of Mathematics offers the options listed and described below."

They do say there is a chance for such students to progress to the PhD program. They go on to give some necessary but not sufficient conditions to do so. This too is common, but the reality is often that very few can progress this way.

 

[Quant4Life]

That is not true. Read here under "Applying for the Ph.D. program" http://www.math.nyu.edu/degree/ms/ms_math.html
"Continuing M.S. students who wish to apply for the Ph.D. program must first earn the grade of A on the Written Comprehensive Examinations."

Same is implied on Math Fin Website here http://math.nyu.edu/financial_mathematics/content/02_financial/04.html

I guess, I'm just trying to express my advice to the poster of the thread. @MartingaleOpt didn't receive any phd offers so he needs to consider masters to get to phd. I recommend doing a pure MS in math (or applied), NYU could be a good choice (although also very competitive) but there are other schools too. But the point is that a MFE program is even less likely to get you admitted into PhD, compared to going through a pure MS in math with a real academic thesis...

 

[C S]

That is not true. Read here under "Applying for the Ph.D. program" http://www.math.nyu.edu/degree/ms/ms_math.html
"Continuing M.S. students who wish to apply for the Ph.D. program must first earn the grade of A on the Written Comprehensive Examinations."

That is one of the necessary, but not sufficient, conditions I alluded to.

Same is implied on Math Fin Website here http://math.nyu.edu/financial_mathematics/content/02_financial/04.html

I'd agree that link seems to suggest those interested in a PhD should get an MS in math first. But I happen to know that's not what Courant says to those they actually consider worthy of their PhD program. So one can interpret the words in that link to be aimed at students who don't feel confident to apply straightaway to a PhD program (or have been rejected), and are considering ending with a masters. I'm willing to bet you don't get fully funded if you enroll in the MS program. You do if you get in the PhD program there. So the difference is clear.

I guess, I'm just trying to express my advice to the poster of the thread. @MartingaleOpt didn't receive any phd offers so he needs to consider masters to get to phd. I recommend doing a pure MS in math (or applied), NYU could be a good choice (although also very competitive) but there are other schools too. But the point is that a MFE program is even less likely to get you admitted into PhD, compared to going through a pure MS in math with a real academic thesis...

Courant is not very competitive at all for pure mathematics. Maybe that's changed somewhat in recent years, but for many top students contemplating pure math PhDs, Courant isn't even on the radar.

You were talking about top PhD programs before. For those, doing what you describe does absolutely nothing for someone who has already been rejected from those very programs.

 

[MartingaleOpt]

The difference in my application next year compared to this year is that I am completing a research term with stochastic integration as my topic during the coming Summer. I think the main reason I was not accepted for PhD programs was that I had very strong marks and work experience, but no research at all. I am hoping to remedy that after the research this summer, but as a sort of "backup" I wanted to enlist in an MFE program.

 

[Umnik]

I would say based on my experience that Masters in Math Fin (mine is from BU) worsenes CV for PhD in Math

 

[C S]

The difference in my application next year compared to this year is that I am completing a research term with stochastic integration as my topic during the coming Summer. I think the main reason I was not accepted for PhD programs was that I had very strong marks and work experience, but no research at all. I am hoping to remedy that after the research this summer, but as a sort of "backup" I wanted to enlist in an MFE program.

The main factor is letters of recommendation. Doing good research will get you good letter(s) (probably) but that's putting the cart before the horse.

 

[pacman]

Is a non top 10 (or 20) PhD useless or something? How are these programs?

http://www.utstat.toronto.edu/wordpress/?page_id=1613

http://www.math.uic.edu/graduate/degrees/compfinphd

http://statistics.rice.edu/Content.aspx?id=500

http://www.math.cmu.edu/graduate/PhDMathFinance.html