Columbia MSOR Columbia MSOR Admission Results

[bullion]

remylebeau
thanks for calling me out... you douche :p Actually, my impression of MSFE has gotten better with the newly available employment reports. With that said, I would appreciate more in-depth analysis...

My impression came from two sources.
1) Over a dinner conversation with a managing director of a major market maker, I was told that one year would simply be too short to learn QF (and that means you need to take MORE CLASSES, not DRAG ON YOUR SEMESTER TO FIT AN INTERNSHIP). The credit limit is mandated by the faculty senate and administrators, so the students are forced to select electives rather than learning all applicable aspects of FE as a general field. Markets, however, are intrinsically inter-connected. Your chosen electives' field might be completely gone when you graduate. Students' flexibility in choosing classes ironically limits their career options (imagine the surprise of those who specialized in structured finance during the subprime crisis only to find out THERE WAS NO DEMAND). In contrasts, CMU and NYU have fairly strict curricula and everyone takes the same classes. The faculty now must identify the core skills required for placement, so they limit their placement to a rather narrow field (S&T) where most of their graduates will end up. The more flexibility you have in a program, the less of a specialist program you seem to be because specialists don't get choices. You learn everything you're REQUIRED TO.

2) How much information schools divulge also shapes how they are perceived. Columbia students get a lot of job posting through their department-wide emails available to both undergrads and PhDs in OR, so they see a lot of non-quant opportunities. One of the most common complaints seem to be the lack of PERSONAL ASSISTANCE for placement (although the complaints came most often during the crisis, at which point there was nothing they could do). Understandably, people infer such inaction as a sign that the Columbia's staff are relying on the Columbia brand to promote their students. CMU, on the other hand, offers very clear idea to where all its alumni went. They have a very clear message about their program (we are computationally heavy), and their placement record speaks loud and clear about which industry they graduates excel in. Baruch has also done so with their placement record, and I think they definitely benefited significantly in terms of attracting top candidates with their openness.

Having sat in one of Columbia's classes before, I think the academic difference between two programs on a per course basis is marginal. With the exception of program length, most schools basically teach the same thing. But the MSFE brand is somewhat diluted with MSOR students who "specializes" in FE. It can only mean that 1) MSOR are equally qualified, which means they should've been MSFE students at the first place, or 2) MSFE courses can teach anyone. The exclusivity brings about the idea of a specialist program. If everyone can take it, you're really aren't that special even in your own school.

 

[snipez]

Actually the flexibility in curricula is about the same for Columbia and NYU: in the first semester everyone takes 4 required core courses and in the second semester, there are 2 electives and 2 core classes (3 electives at NYU if you've taken Scientific Computing). Also what is your definition of S&T? Does it include i-bank S&T, prop trading, structuring, quant, and risk? If so then I agree and would question why you think an MFE degree should be any different.

You also seem to think that the scope and knowledge of students in these programs are entirely subject to their curricula or something. The reality is that the good people can actually learn stuff on their own and can tailor their resumes to reflect their unique interests and skills.

 

[remylebeau]

bullion: Thanks for citing your reasons and sources. Yes, I was drawn to Columbia's wide offering of electives, to be honest. Not so much for the flexibility, but for the breadth of topics covered. Was quite looking forward to read almost all of them (sleep be damned). I didn't realize that there was a mandated credit limit! That is certainly something to look into...

snipez: Good point. Even as part of the curricula, with electives, I guess a student can really choose his specialization and market himself that way if he wants to. Though I would certainly hope that after having paid something like USD70k, I won't have to spend my pre-bedtime hours learning up, say, algorithmic trading on my own!

It seems like a common complaint most people have with Columbia is that they don't release in-depth employment statistics for their graduates. They recently conducted an open house session for admitted MSFE students where they answered many questions pertaining to employment statistics and career services offered. I've taken the liberty of transcribing (& reorganizing) the video they subsequently put on the net. Hope this helps all you dawgs!

Career Placement Office​

1) Columbia MSFE has a dedicated Career Placement Officer - Tamar Senderowicz. She has weekly office hours for walk-in students. At the beginning of the school year, she meets incoming students individually to discuss their resume, career goals and ideal work locations. She also conducts videotaped mock interview sessions with incoming students to establish their base level of interview skills (both technical & behavioral). These filmed mock interview sessions continue throughout the school year. As the MSFE school year begins in Jul, this work is meant to prepare students for recruiting season, which starts in Sep.​

2) Organized on-campus employer visits. The employers range from large investment banks with training programs, to boutique investment firms, to start-up firms.​

3) Visits to firms on Fridays, when there are no courses. These are informal networking sessions that sometimes lead to interviews.​

4) MSFE students' resumes are included in an MSFE Resume Book that is marketed to employers.​

​

Other career placement activities​

5) Alumni events. There have been two roundtable sessions this year. These are held together with the students of other IEOR departments. Typically a ratio of 10 students to 1 alumnus.​

6) Shadow and mentoring program. MSFE students get to visit alumni or friends of alumni at their firms. Ratio can be as low as 2 students to 1 alumus.​

7) Access to overall Columbia career centre with thousands of job postings and employer events.​

8) MSFE students are permitted to hold internships during the semester, up to a maximum of 20 hours a week.​

Employment statistics for 2010 incoming class​

9) Total of 53 students, which is lower than usual.​

10) 30% graduated in May '11, 9% graduated in Aug '11, 61% graduated in Dec '11 after having done a summer internship.​

11) 20% went into quantitative risk positions, 35% to a trading/structuring role, 25% into pure research positions, 5% software development, 5% entrepreneurial/own ventures, 5% pursuing other academic programs. At least 2 were admitted into PhD programs.​

12) 50% of the students went to Fortune 500 firms (e.g. investment banks, large accounting firms with strategy and consulting arms such as PwC and Deloitte). The rest went to boutique investment banks.​

​

 

[CharlesT]

remylebeau
thanks for calling me out... you douche :p Actually, my impression of MSFE has gotten better with the newly available employment reports. With that said, I would appreciate more in-depth analysis...

My impression came from two sources.
1) Over a dinner conversation with a managing director of a major market maker, I was told that one year would simply be too short to learn QF (and that means you need to take MORE CLASSES, not DRAG ON YOUR SEMESTER TO FIT AN INTERNSHIP). The credit limit is mandated by the faculty senate and administrators, so the students are forced to select electives rather than learning all applicable aspects of FE as a general field. Markets, however, are intrinsically inter-connected. Your chosen electives' field might be completely gone when you graduate. Students' flexibility in choosing classes ironically limits their career options (imagine the surprise of those who specialized in structured finance during the subprime crisis only to find out THERE WAS NO DEMAND). In contrasts, CMU and NYU have fairly strict curricula and everyone takes the same classes. The faculty now must identify the core skills required for placement, so they limit their placement to a rather narrow field (S&T) where most of their graduates will end up. The more flexibility you have in a program, the less of a specialist program you seem to be because specialists don't get choices. You learn everything you're REQUIRED TO.

2) How much information schools divulge also shapes how they are perceived. Columbia students get a lot of job posting through their department-wide emails available to both undergrads and PhDs in OR, so they see a lot of non-quant opportunities. One of the most common complaints seem to be the lack of PERSONAL ASSISTANCE for placement (although the complaints came most often during the crisis, at which point there was nothing they could do). Understandingly, people infer such inaction as a sign that the Columbia's staff are relying on the Columbia brand to promote their students. CMU, on the other hand, offers very clear idea to where all its alumni went. They have a very clear message about their program (we are computationally heavy), and their placement record speaks loud and clear about which industry they graduates excel in. Baruch has also done so with their placement record, and I think they definitely benefited significantly in terms of attracting top candidates with their openness.

Having sat in one of Columbia's classes before, I think the academic difference between two programs on a per course basis is marginal. With the exception of program length, most schools basically teach the same thing. But the MSFE brand is somewhat diluted with MSOR students who "specializes" in FE. It can only mean that 1) MSOR are equally qualified, which means they should've been MSFE students at the first place, or 2) MSFE courses can teach anyone. The exclusivity brings about the idea of a specialist program. If everyone can take it, you're really aren't that special even in your own school.

Some comments:
1
"In contrasts, CMU and NYU have fairly strict curricula and everyone takes the same classes."
Actually NYU is in a core + electives structure (students interested in this program can do their own research.)

2
"The faculty now must identify the core skills required for placement, so they limit their placement to a rather narrow field (S&T) where most of their graduates will end up."

I think CMU's program has the largest group of students doing S&T, even though I'm not sure whether that it because students entering the program with more S&T background or the program has focus on S&T. At least from the courses offered, I don't see a S&T focus. What I see is a generalist style.

3
"One of the most common complaints seem to be the lack of PERSONAL ASSISTANCE for placement (although the complaints came most often during the crisis, at which point there was nothing they could do)."

I suggest student who need more PERSONAL ASSISTANCE to go to CMU. I think you can potentially get better service (just some more service fees (tuitions.)) If you believe that you are strong enough, you can consider Columbia. The opportunities are just there in NYC. But of course, not everybody can get them, and to be honest, a large number of students cannot get them. It's like trading, 20% win, 80% loss. These 80% always have the illusion that they can become 20% in the future.

In recent years, the competition is becoming more and more tough as the candidates pool is becoming over crowded. So please think twice before entering this industry. Better salaries implies longer hours and more intense work. There is always no obvious arbitrage opportunities. Maybe MFE has already been over valued. Then you should short it. Haha.
There are already people mention CS in this posting. You guys should consider that. Haha.

4
"They have a very clear message about their program (we are computationally heavy)"

I suggest students who want to improve their programming skills should go to CMU, because they teach you how to write code, even though I think for EECS majors the IT courses in MSCF might be duplicated (Not sure though.) In NYU/Columbia's program, they just assume your programming skills are high and give you FE projects directly. I think it can be over intense for people without enough programming backgrounds.

5
"Having sat in one of Columbia's classes before, I think the academic difference between two programs on a per course basis is marginal."
Agree. 1 or 1.5 years program really cannot help too much.

6
"But the MSFE brand is somewhat diluted with MSOR students who "specializes" in FE. It can only mean that 1) MSOR are equally qualified, which means they should've been MSFE students at the first place, or 2) MSFE courses can teach anyone. The exclusivity brings about the idea of a specialist program. If everyone can take it, you're really aren't that special even in your own school"

Obviously NOT"everyone can take it". But I do believe that a small group of well qualified MSOR students can get the permission to take advanced FE courses (More research needed.) That will definitely make the competition TOUGHER, as the situation now in the finance industry. On the other hand, it also has the potential to increase the size of Columbia's alumni network. I think CMU now has the largest number of alumni from MFE programs, right? But I think Columbia's alumni in this field is increasing rapidly.

 

[Chashu]

They indeed are sending the results today

 

[grcheng]

Ya I got an admit!

 

[JDawg]

YES

 

[mfegrad]

I suggest student who need more PERSONAL ASSISTANCE to go to CMU.

this is exactly wrong. you would choose cmu not because you need more personal assistance but because you understand that:

a) this is a terminal degree and that the job you land out of the program is important
b) that cmu's program is highly respected in the industry
c) that its career services does a bang-up job bringing companies to campus and getting students in front of recruiters.

these things are even more important given what you said about the abundance of mfe programs these days (which is correct).

 

[CharlesT]

this is exactly wrong. you would choose cmu not because you need more personal assistance but because you understand that:

a) this is a terminal degree and that the job you land out of the program is important
b) that cmu's program is highly respected in the industry
c) that its career services does a bang-up job bringing companies to campus and getting students in front of recruiters.

these things are even more important given what you said about the abundance of mfe programs these days (which is correct).

Yeah. I agree with you that CMU's career service is very good. As I said, it is meanless to compare top programs. But I think MSCF is a really good choice one should consider when choosing MFE programs.

 

[holbond]

YES

hi did u get that update on your ms application mail? or did u just get the admit mail ?

 

[nycquant]

hi did u get that update on your ms application mail? or did u just get the admit mail ?

Congratulations!

Let me be among the first to inform you that you have been admitted to the Masters of Science in Operations Research at Columbia University, pending the verification of your admissions documents. My colleagues and I hope you will join us this fall.

You have every reason to be proud of this accomplishment. The admissions process was very competitive; you were selected amongst the most talented individuals from prestigious institutions all over the world.

We look forward to meeting you during orientation, which begins on August 27, 2012. In the next week you will receive instructions on how to secure your space in the class via email, which will be followed by information about housing, applying for a visa, etc. If you do not receive this notification within two weeks, please email seasgradmit@columbia.edu. In the meantime, feel free to contact our Admissions Coordinator Adina Brooks at (212) 854-1934, or email adina@ieor.columbia.edu with any questions you may have.

Again, congratulations, and hope to see you at Orientation!

Sincerely yours,

Professor Soulaymane Kachani
Director of IEOR Master's Programs
The Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science
Columbia University

 

[Yang_Pop]

Hi, guys:
I received an email from them.
I was redirected from MFE, and rejected by MSOR in the email.
This might because I said MSOR is not my first choice if it admits as much students as it did last year.
I think they want to make sure you will go there.
Wish you all good luck.

 

[holbond]

Congratulations!

Let me be among the first to inform you that you have been admitted to the Masters of Science in Operations Research at Columbia University, pending the verification of your admissions documents. My colleagues and I hope you will join us this fall.

You have every reason to be proud of this accomplishment. The admissions process was very competitive; you were selected amongst the most talented individuals from prestigious institutions all over the world.

We look forward to meeting you during orientation, which begins on August 27, 2012. In the next week you will receive instructions on how to secure your space in the class via email, which will be followed by information about housing, applying for a visa, etc. If you do not receive this notification within two weeks, please email seasgradmit@columbia.edu. In the meantime, feel free to contact our Admissions Coordinator Adina Brooks at (212) 854-1934, or email adina@ieor.columbia.edu with any questions you may have.

Again, congratulations, and hope to see you at Orientation!

Sincerely yours,

Professor Soulaymane Kachani
Director of IEOR Master's Programs
The Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science
Columbia University

hi i was asking because i got only that update mail. Did u receive that mail too ?

 

[nycquant]

hi i was asking because i got only that update mail. Did u receive that mail too ?

Yea, I did receive the update mail, 1 or 2 weeks bak.. And yesterday, my decision status changed in the ieor admissions website and in a couple of minutes, I got this mail..

 

[holbond]

Yea, I did receive the update mail, 1 or 2 weeks bak.. And yesterday, my decision status changed in the ieor admissions website and in a couple of minutes, I got this mail..

I recieved the update mail stating that the results will be out by march 30th yesterday and I din't receive any other mail.. Did u get the same mail?

 

[nycquant]

update mail stating that the results will be out by march 30th \

No, Sorry... I didn't get any such mail.. Only the one askin me to call for an interview and tat was on 17th..

 

[holbond]

No, Sorry... I didn't get any such mail.. Only the one askin me to call for an interview and tat was on 17th..

oh.. then i think i m the only one to get that mail.. people got either acceptance or rejection mail.. no one seems to get an update mail like this..

 

[bullion]

Hey CharlesT, I appreciate your comments and thoughts regarding my posts. I am, however, feeling a somewhat defensive vibe from your posts. I am not here to speak ill of Collumbia given my tremendous respect for Prof Derman and his colleagues. I simply find the CMU program more suitable for me and those who share my interest / passion toward a certain career direction. However, remylebeau 's question was regarding the origin of my personal perception (quite possibly misplaced) of the two programs. Columbia serves its students unique needs very well, and I have no interest in arguing which is categorically better.

1) That is correct. However, NYU students has to choose 11 / 17 (65%) classes to graduate. MSFE students, however, chooses 12 classes from 22 electives (55%) to graduate according to their proposed Aug 2013 completion. If the full range of all electives represent the full range of topics in traditional FE, that means NYU covered 65% of everything the professors know and Columbia covered only 55%. This metric obviously has its shortcoming (different classes with similar topics, seminar-style coverage.) But with the availability of "concentrations," MSFE now looks like an umbrella program combining "specialists" from four different focuses and all other students in between. Why not just open four different master programs then? That at least tells me upfront at admissions what I'll be training for.

2) What we think from the course description is highly subjective, so I can't argue either way. What I do know for sure, however, is that CMU has a strong track record in S&T (vs asset management / econ / trading systems) and the industry clearly approves of its teaching style. Whether such reality is a function of the curriculum or admissions bias is beyond my interest, and I'll leave you to analyze those data.

3) The value of personal assistance is clearly in the eyes of the beholders. I guess you can dub yourself the strongest candidate in the room not needing any assistance, but for the rest of us we will take any help we can. You can take your 20/80 gamble, but I will do anything to get as close to 100% as possible. I want my career advisor to bat for me in front of recruiters and stake the entire school's reputation on my behalf. If such service requires a good extra 20k, it is just the cost of doing business. According to other MSOR students, both CMU / UCB have much better chance at securing quant jobs than the 20% and they are both well known for their personal placement assistance (and let's not forget Baruch.) I hate to think them as lucky coincidents that Columbia just happens to miss. And yes, I was the one suggested the CS alternative.

4) CS studies and programming for projects are very different. The implementation of pricing algorithm is hardly a challenge, but the industry standards of templates and patterns demand special instruction. Programming isn't just about getting the right answers. You need better understanding of the strength and weakness of a language (possibly due to compiler implementation) and the applications to the latest technology (multithreading, caching, etc). Calling "programming projects" the same as "CS studies" is like calling the difference between C++ and other languages "a matter of syntax." or maybe the rest of us just don't share the same level of programming proficiency as the Columbia guys do.

5) Well, the embedded / required internship helps. The extra courses help. Whether you think they matter for job hunting is a matter of opinion I don't really care about.

6) the impression I got from catchuec 's post is that most MSOR students have access to the electives. If the courses aren't, then I suspect many MSOR prospects here are in for a big surprised. Obviously, a school can grow its alumni more quickly pumping over 200+ hopefuls (from MSFE, MSOR, MAFM) in one field when another produces only 50+ graduates (well, that might change with the online option.) but at least for my graduating classes, I rather be in a family of 50 strong in one direction (with nearly 100% succes rate) than 200+ people all crowding toward one area and leaving 80% disappointed.

I'm not too bright, and I need a lot of help to become successful. Sometimes I am lucky to find a good mentor who's willing to coach me for free, other times I need to purchase personal assistance to help present/polish me in better light. Maybe you're a much more stronger and qualified than I am, and you can certainly tell other "weaker" candidates to stay away from Columbia. But the strong representation of all other schools on Wall Street clearly showed that these non-Columbia programs are just as effective at all career levels as your raw talent upon enrolling at Columbia. So maybe it's time to curb your ego and show some humility before calling yourself "strong enough"

 

[CharlesT]

Hey CharlesT, I appreciate your comments and thoughts regarding my posts. I am, however, feeling a somewhat defensive vibe from your posts. I am not here to speak ill of Collumbia given my tremendous respect for Prof Derman and his colleagues. I simply find the CMU program more suitable for me and those who share my interest / passion toward a certain career direction. However, remylebeau 's question was regarding the origin of my personal perception (quite possibly misplaced) of the two programs. Columbia serves its students unique needs very well, and I have no interest in arguing which is categorically better.

1) That is correct. However, NYU students has to choose 11 / 17 (65%) classes to graduate. MSFE students, however, chooses 12 classes from 22 electives (55%) to graduate according to their proposed Aug 2013 completion. If the full range of all electives represent the full range of topics in traditional FE, that means NYU covered 65% of everything the professors know and Columbia covered only 55%. This metric obviously has its shortcoming (different classes with similar topics, seminar-style coverage.) But with the availability of "concentrations," MSFE now looks like an umbrella program combining "specialists" from four different focuses and all other students in between. Why not just open four different master programs then? That at least tells me upfront at admissions what I'll be training for.

2) What we think from the course description is highly subjective, so I can't argue either way. What I do know for sure, however, is that CMU has a strong track record in S&T (vs asset management / econ / trading systems) and the industry clearly approves of its teaching style. Whether such reality is a function of the curriculum or admissions bias is beyond my interest, and I'll leave you to analyze those data.

3) The value of personal assistance is clearly in the eyes of the beholders. I guess you can dub yourself the strongest candidate in the room not needing any assistance, but for the rest of us we will take any help we can. You can take your 20/80 gamble, but I will do anything to get as close to 100% as possible. I want my career advisor to bat for me in front of recruiters and stake the entire school's reputation on my behalf. If such service requires a good extra 20k, it is just the cost of doing business. According to other MSOR students, both CMU / UCB have much better chance at securing quant jobs than the 20% and they are both well known for their personal placement assistance (and let's not forget Baruch.) I hate to think it as some lucky accident that Columbia just happens to miss on. And yes, I was the one suggested the CS alternative.

4) CS studies and programming for projects are very different. The implementation of pricing algorithm is hardly a challenge, but the industry standards of templates and patterns demand special instruction. Programming isn't just about getting the right answers. You need better understanding of the strength and weakness of a language (possibly due to compiler implementation) and the applications to the latest technology (multithreading, caching, etc). Calling "programming projects" the same as "CS studies" is like calling the difference between C++ and other languages "a matter of syntax." or maybe the rest of us just don't share the same level of programming proficiency as the Columbia guys do.

5) Well, the embedded / required internship helps. The extra courses help. Whether you think they matter for job hunting is a matter of opinion I don't really care about.

6) the impression I got from catchuec 's post is that most MSOR students have access to the electives. If the courses aren't, then I suspect many MSOR prospects here are in for a big surprised. Obviously, a school can grow its alumni more quickly pumping over 200+ hopefuls (from MSFE, MSOR, MAFM) in one field when another produces only 50+ graduates (well, that might change with the online option.) but at least for my graduating classes, I rather be in a family of 50 strong in one direction (with nearly 100% succes rate) than 200+ people all crowding toward one area and leaving 80% disappointed.

I'm not too bright, and I need a lot of help to become successful. Sometimes I am lucky to find a good mentor who's willing to coach me for free, other times I need to purchase personal assistance to help present/polish me in better light. Maybe you're a much more stronger and qualified than I am, and you can certainly tell other "weaker" candidates to stay away from Columbia. But the strong representation of all other schools on Wall Street clearly showed that these non-Columbia programs are just as effective at all career levels as your raw talent upon enrolling at Columbia. So maybe it's time to curb your ego and show some humility before calling yourself "strong enough"

Yeah, first of all, I think we have a COMMON view: we have no interest in arguing which program is better. Students always choose the program that he/she thinks is most suitable, just as what you did.

I have already said previously that CMU is a very good program to study MFE. Maybe I need to say it again here. I didn't say any candidates are "weaker." Nor did I say that I'm strong. I only said "If you believe that you are strong enough, you can consider Columbia." Why did you imply that I'm strong? All I said was about YOU. I used the word "consider". I didn't say you must go, because I'm also not 100% sure. Why did you imply that I'm going to Columbia? I'm just a PROSPECTIVE students doing research on various programs and talked a little about my thoughts in this forum.

Some comments (Yours are in quotes "")
1
"you can certainly tell other "weaker" candidates to stay away from Columbia"

I said students who think they need to improve programming skills should consider MSCF. I never say they are "weaker." They can be very very strong in math and finance. I think your word "weaker" is not accurate. There is only "fit" or "doesn't fit." Each candidate can find the program that fits him/her best. I also used the word "consider." It is the candidates themselves that make the decision.

2
"Obviously, a school can grow its alumni more quickly pumping over 200+ hopefuls (from MSFE, MSOR, MAFM) in one field when another produces only 50+ graduates (well, that might change with the online option.) but at least for my graduating classes, I rather be in a family of 50 strong in one direction (with nearly 100% succes rate) than 200+ people all crowding toward one area and leaving 80% disappointed."
" So maybe it's time to curb your ego and show some humility before calling yourself "strong enough""

I like humility. I think "ego" appears more easily when a person is enjoying an exclusive service and call the others "crowds". I think "ego" appears more easily when a small group of so-called "elite" try to grab all the scarce resources from the world and claiming that they are the king of exclusive resource, right?

You mentioned "well, that might change with the online option." It seems to show your lack of confidence. You seem to be afraid that when there are more people studying the same things as you, you might not be able to compete with them.

Also, I know you belong to a group of elite, but please be respected a little to the other students.
Maybe I’m wrong, but to me your description above seems not to respect other students in other programs a LITTLE. Similarly, in previous postings, you described some Chinese students as ""(mostly money-hungry Chinese who can't speak English... and I can say that because I am Chinese. others saying it will just be racist :p)""
I also feel a uncomfortable with that either. Do you think you can describe your mother a “money-hungry” woman? I think it shouldn't come from a well-educated CMU student. Fortunately I have talked to several other CMU alumni and had a interview, so I think it may not be a common case.

Actually when I saw the "Occupying Wall Street" and the protest from Princeton students against Goldman Sachs, I thought twice about what I want to do. I just hope that when you become part of the small group of elite in the future, you can try to provide more service and guidance to the PUBLIC (or maybe what you called "crowded") rather than those so-called exclusive service to a small group of people and gathering money into your or your own small group's pocket.

 

[mfegrad]

CharlesT

straight up and in the interest of full disclosure...which program are you attending/heading to/a graduate of, if any?