I need a plan.

[pip_diddy]

Hey guys,

I decided about a year ago that I wanted to pursue a M.S. FE. I'm currently an undergraduate senior and will be applying to various programs for Fall 2015 admission. Getting into a top program is going to be an uphill battle to say the least. I've done a lot in the past year to improve my candidacy (including adding a Computer Science minor, gaining experience through internships, earning several relevant certifications, etc), but I still feel that I'm coming up short and time isn't exactly on my side with deadlines fast approaching.

My Questions for You:

1. Is Cornell out of the question? How about top 15 programs in general? If so, what would be the best move? Gain more full-time experience, take some additional classes on the side to make up for mathematical weaknesses, then reapply to MFE programs in a year or two, or opt for an M.S. Computer Science instead?
2. Based on my stats below, is there anything else I should be doing to further improve my candidacy?
3. Any general suggestions.

Brief Stats:

• Syracuse University
• Dual B.S. Finance & Accounting | Minor in Computer Science
• GPA: 3.39*
• Internships:
  • Cadaret Grant - Trading - Fall 2014
    • Data Analytics and Java programming
  • Ernst & Young - Asset Management Tax - Summer 2014
    • Hedge Fund engagement
  • DB&B (local accounting firm) - Tax Internship - Winter/Spring 2014
    • Tax prep
  • Prudential Financial - Portfolio Management - Summer 2013
• Mathematics Courses:
  • Calculus I & II (Taking Calculus III in Spring 2015)
  • Calculus-Based Probability & Statistics
  • Advanced Regression Analysis
  • Discrete (proofs, set theory)
• Computer Science Courses
  • Functional Programming in Haskell
  • Data Structures - Java
  • Graduate-Level C++ course (taking in Spring 2015)
  • Algorithms
• Certifications
  • CFA - Level I Candidate - December 2014 Exam
  • CMT - Level I Candidate - October 2014 Exam
  • Licensed Excel Specialist - Certiport
  • Bloomberg Certified - Equities, Commodities, FX, Fixed Income

PROBLEMS:

• I'm taking Calc III next semester, but I haven't taken Calc II since Spring 2011. Even then, I haven't taken Diff-Eq or Linear Algebra, and I simply don't have the time to complete those courses before graduating in May.
• Not a STEM major. Computer Science minor helps, but it's not enough.
• *GPA is relatively low, but anticipate it will be above a 3.50 by December 2014, though this is too late for some program deadlines. This GPA doesn't reflect all of my undergraduate studies, however. I attended community college for two years before Syracuse University. My weighted cumulative undergraduate GPA is above a 3.70.
• Still need to take GRE.

I have attached a copy of my resume to this post. It does not currently reflect my trading internship, as I just started.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

 

[Ken Abbott]

Don't go straight to grad school. Get a job. Work for a few years.

 

[Parallax]

I cannot comment on the likelihood of admission to a top program, but here are my two cents regarding your prep...

I feel as though you are trying to do too much. Finishing an undergraduate program and prepping for the CFA and CMT exams (within two months of one another) may be a little much. If you can pass both of those exams, and continue with strong grades at school, then that would be quite the accomplishment.

Just my thoughts...

Regarding Ken's thoughts, I would agree with that with one caveat...don't get any debt while you are working the first couple of years (e.g., buy a house, car, etc..). It's very hard to leave work once you are earning a decent living and have bills to pay.

Best of luck!

 

[bigbadwolf]

The old lethal combination (so often seen on this forum) of boundless ambition and limited math and coding background.

 

[pingu]

The old lethal combination (so often seen on this forum) of boundless ambition and limited math and coding background.

... and then crash into reality.

 

[IntoDarkness]

u guys r cruel

 

[bigbadwolf]

... and then crash into reality.

Well, seriously depleting one's funds for sure. People need to ask themselves why they want to do an MFE. Often it's just because of ambition as an MFE is seen as a ticket to highly paid employment, rather than because of any enduring interest in math or coding. This is a recipe for disaster, in my exceedingly humble opinion.

 

[IntoDarkness]

but u cant do math and coding for ever. wats the exit opps when age goes to 50s and 60s?

 

[Ken Abbott]

u guys r cruel

The real world is far, far more cruel.

 

[pip_diddy]

The old lethal combination (so often seen on this forum) of boundless ambition and limited math and coding background.

This is not about chasing a ticket to highly paid employment. Look, I started college in the midst of what I hope is the greatest financial crisis I ever witness. I watched my parents lose everything and struggle to make ends meet through my last two years of high school. My father, a former CPA, often said he wished he had stayed in accounting because of the job security. This is why I chose to major in accounting - because I was 18 and afraid of ending up with a degree that wouldn't guarantee employment.

Accounting programs only require (at most) a business calculus class. I chose to take regular calculus I, and then took calculus II, not because it was required for my degree or because there would be some financial reward, but because it was the one subject I felt adequately challenged in. Solving complex problems releases an emotional surge for me. That is what this is about.

Unfortunately, there's only so much room for electives, and after attending two separate community colleges and losing a significant amount of credits in the transfer process, I just felt it was more economically sound to put my desire to explore advanced mathematical topics on the back burner. It wasn't doing anything to help me graduate faster, and I was already behind on credits after transferring.

I agree that I don't have the necessary mathematical and programming backgrounds to compete for a top MFE program. That's why I decided to add a Computer Science minor, and to take Calculus III and a graduate-level C++ course next semester in addition to the 4 courses I need to graduate.

I know there are a ton of people coming on these forums with unrealistic expectations. I thank you guys for being forward with me, but I know what my deficiencies are and I'm working on them. If I can't get into a program next year, then I'll take whatever time is needed to further prepare myself. I'm looking for advice on what to do in addition to what I'm already doing.

 

[pip_diddy]

but u cant do math and coding for ever. wats the exit opps when age goes to 50s and 60s?

Is it realistic to plan that far ahead? I'm 22. The landscape of the job market - especially for trading/quantitative finance - has changed drastically in just the past five years. No doubt it will change over the next 30.

Nobody knows what they want to do in 20 or 30 years. I could tell you that I think I'd like to be managing a hedge fund by then, but I'm certainly not going to decide what degree to pursue now based on what the job outlook is several decades out. Especially in this industry; regulation changes too rapidly.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I agree that I don't have the necessary mathematical and programming backgrounds to compete for a top MFE program. That's why I decided to add a Computer Science minor, and to take Calculus III and a graduate-level C++ course next semester in addition to the 4 courses I need to graduate.

I know there are a ton of people coming on these forums with unrealistic expectations. I thank you guys for being forward with me, but I know what my deficiencies are and I'm working on them. If I can't get into a program next year, then I'll take whatever time is needed to further prepare myself. I'm looking for advice on what to do in addition to what I'm already doing.

You might fall between two stools. Not to discourage you, but the following is the problem. Many of the people going for the better MFE programs have a strong math background and usually at least adequate coding background. Even if you get admitted to a leading MFE program, the average will be higher than what you bring. These are people who've usually taken the equivalent of Calc 1 in high school, and often even Calc 2 (the AP Calc exam, versions AB and BC respectively). They'll have taken undergrad courses in ODEs, PDEs, numerical analysis, linear algebra, and often real analysis -- and all this in an unhurried fashion that allowed them to grok and digest the material. That's what a math or physics degree involves.

To use another metaphor, trying to switch horses midstream can be daunting.

 

[Yike Lu]

These are people who've usually taken the equivalent of Calc 1 in high school, and often even Calc 2 (the AP Calc exam, versions AB and BC respectively).

Or maybe even ODEs in high school.

 

[pip_diddy]

You might fall between two stools. Not to discourage you, but the following is the problem. Many of the people going for the better MFE programs have a strong math background and usually at least adequate coding background. Even if you get admitted to a leading MFE program, the average will be higher than what you bring. These are people who've usually taken the equivalent of Calc 1 in high school, and often even Calc 2 (the AP Calc exam, versions AB and BC respectively). They'll have taken undergrad courses in ODEs, PDEs, numerical analysis, linear algebra, and often real analysis -- and all this in an unhurried fashion that allowed them to grok and digest the material. That's what a math or physics degree involves.

To use another metaphor, trying to switch horses midstream can be daunting.

So the way I see it, I have a few options after graduation:

1. Work full-time as a sell-side analyst while taking mathematics and programming classes
part-time, then reapply to MFE programs once I've gained the necessary qualifications.

• • PROS
    • Gain relevant experience in trading and programming
    • Pay off debt ($85k)
    • Additional time to continue working towards CFA and CMT
  • CONS
    • Not a bulge bracket bank gig; very small trading department
    • Takes more time

2. Pursue a dual M.S. Computer Science/Mathematics full-time

• • PROS
    • Program is designed for people who want to change career paths
    • Broad exposure to topics and more time to absorb everything
    • Would arguably allow me to achieve the same professional goals
  • CONS
    • Not specifically designed for quant roles; curriculum will likely be light in financial applications, with the exception of maybe a few electives courses
    • More debt, as this would likely take 1.5 to two years

Would you guys agree with this? Are these the two most lucrative paths? In your opinion, which is better and why?

 

[bigbadwolf]

Or maybe even ODEs in high school.

No good reason why it can't be done in HS. The linear algebra that's needed can be developed alongside it. And once you see linear algebra being used in ODEs (linear independence of solutions, Wronskian, etc.), you start to understand why linear algebra is more than just matrix theory.

 

[IntoDarkness]

85k debt rite out of college even with going to cc for couple years is pretty huge...

 

[pip_diddy]

85k debt rite out of college even with going to cc for couple years is pretty huge...

I agree. My parents were unable to contribute (largely because of the recession), and unfortunately I qualified for very little financial aid due to their income. I did two years of community college, and 3 years at a private school. ~$55k in private loans between 5.49% and 6.79% fixed, plus (mostly unsubsidized) government loans. Brutal.

Could have gone to a public school, but I figured after paying for room/board, the marginal savings I would achieve wouldn't be worth forgoing access to the alumni network of a private institution.

 

[Ole Bueker]

I like your plans. Personally, I would follow plan 1 since it will allow you to pay off debts (which are insane in the US from what I've heard as an European) and will give you some actual practical experience. In my personal opinion, practical experience is much more useful compared to studying and will give you more freedom to chose later on. Sure, you will lose a few years, but if you really care about the field and want to stay in the field for the next 30+ years, I don't think it will make a huge difference (especially if you can use the work experience to your advantage).

 

[pip_diddy]

I like your plans. Personally, I would follow plan 1 since it will allow you to pay off debts (which are insane in the US from what I've heard as an European) and will give you some actual practical experience. In my personal opinion, practical experience is much more useful compared to studying and will give you more freedom to chose later on. Sure, you will lose a few years, but if you really care about the field and want to stay in the field for the next 30+ years, I don't think it will make a huge difference (especially if you can use the work experience to your advantage).

Thanks for the response. I just discovered that Georgia Tech offers an online M.S. Computer Science program, and it's incredibly cheap (< $7000). This seems like an even better option. Work full-time, online M.S. CS part-time, then leverage both my relevant professional experience with a strong background in CS to get into a top MFE program.