MIT vs Princeton vs Oxford (UK)

[John Marks]

I have been accepted for a Math PhD at MIT, a Statistics PhD at Princeton (ORFE) and a Math PhD at Oxford (UK). I already hold an equivalent degree to a MSc in Mathematics. My main goal is to work at a hedge fund but I'm not really interested in programming, at least not spending most of my time programming, though I'm pretty comfortable with C/C++, R, Python. I love building mathematical models of anything possible. I'm not interested in High or Low frequency trading, I like analysing for the long run. What are my possibilities of landing a job after my PhD (all funded) and what are salaries like? I'm 23 and will be 24 when I start the PhD.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I'm not interested in High or Low frequency trading, I like analysing for the long run. What are my possibilities of landing a job after my PhD (all funded) and what are salaries like? I'm 23 and will be 24 when I start the PhD.

There's no "long run" any more. Not just in finance but also with regard to planning a career. There are technical reasons for this -- the financial system has morphed into a "dead man walking," existing simultaneously with a moribund economic system that is going through the motions like a zombie. This is a chunk of the reason why there's so much emphasis on HFT and algorithms: the focus doesn't go beyond short-term. Sixty years ago when Buffett was beginning his career, there was a "long term" and he could profitably spend his time analysing the fundamentals of companies. The answer to your question is that it's entirely unclear what the financial system will look like in a few years, and by implication it's unclear what jobs will be available for freshly minted PhDs.

 

[cheggy kilahala]

Bigbadwolf is overly pessimistic!!! Quant will still be here 20,50,100 years from now. It will still be playing a huge part in financial services sector n the economy in general. The truth is, the environment will keep on changing n that will affect quant analysis and the opportunities too. Just like regulations affected accounting as a profession, they will affect quant analysis; BUT WILL NOT ELIMINATE IT COMPLETELY AS A PROFESSION as bigbadwolf seems to imply.

Go for your PhD. And yes it's important to research on your options once you complete it.

 

[John Marks]

I know buffet-style investing is dead and that Buffet himself has been struggling the past 4 out of 5 years to beat the S%P. But how are the non-hft funds doing? Are they also a dying path? What about PE?

Is it true that RenTech pays well but not that wll given the fact that they perform extremely well?

 

[John Marks]

PD: Which PhD program do you recommend? I like the Oxford one because it is shorter. But I don't know how it compares with MIT or Princeton ORFE. I'm still waiting for Berkeley and Stanford (both Math PhD).

 

[bigbadwolf]

PD: Which PhD program do you recommend? I like the Oxford one because it is shorter. But I don't know how it compares with MIT or Princeton ORFE. I'm still waiting for Berkeley and Stanford (both Math PhD).

I know people who have done Oxford DPhils in math. It is shorter -- but it's less structured. You just have to work on a problem, produce a dissertation, defend it, and you're done. If you already have a very strong background, you should go for it. But choose an adviser with care (belaboring the obvious). If you don't have a very strong background, the MIT/Stanford/Berkeley first- and second-year courses will get you up to speed.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I know buffet-style investing is dead and that Buffet himself has been struggling the past 4 out of 5 years to beat the S%P. But how are the non-hft funds doing? Are they also a dying path? What about PE?

As a math student you know that the solution to a thorny problem often involves stepping back and looking at it in a different light. Do the same here: step back a number of paces and look at the US and British economic systems as a whole. Keep in mind that the financial engineering profession only started developing as a new financial infrastructure was built on the fiat dollar (i.e., de-linked from gold) and ask yourself how much mileage this system has left. These are the questions no-one asks on this forum nor probably anyone anywhere in the quant universe. There are events occurring outside the quant universe (e.g., the slow yet steady erosion of the dollar as reserve) that suggest an era is coming to an end. Now I'm not saying I'm correct -- merely trying to make you think "outside the box."

 

[Parallax]

I know buffet-style investing is dead and that Buffet himself has been struggling the past 4 out of 5 years to beat the S%P. But how are the non-hft funds doing? Are they also a dying path? What about PE?

Is it true that RenTech pays well but not that wll given the fact that they perform extremely well?

As a math student...you're comfortable making a declaration that "buffet-style investing is dead" with a sample size of 5 years?

Quants will always exist, but their roles will evolve. On the asset management side (which is more analogous to what you appear to be looking), quantitative roles are still growing. That includes stock selection models, tactical asset allocation models, and risk models. Whether or not they are "adding value" is a different debate than whether or not they will continue to grow. Quants tend to be very innovative, and innovation tends to attract funds.

What are your salary expectations coming out of a PhD program? By the time you're 30?

 

[martinbutler]

If you already have a MSc can't you skip the two year courses or do them in one year? Then the PhD could be shorter.

 

[bigbadwolf]

If you already have a MSc can't you skip the two year courses or do them in one year? Then the PhD could be shorter.

If you clear the qualifying exams you won't have to take the first year courses. But there's more to a PhD than just doing it in the shortest possible time. British PhDs often have meagre backgrounds, which doesn't serve them well later on.

 

[IntoDarkness]

stats phd from princeton seems good. math phd is just too much... for jobs it all depends on ur skillsets developed during the research process and future market needs. really hard to say. we got some econ and math phd doing internal audit at my place...

 

[John Marks]

Colin, I expect at least a Google/Facebook type of compensation. I could finish my PhD at 27/28, I already have experience researching and feel really comfortable with it. I did a couple of research assistantship and did a thesis for my Masters. I like research a lot but not so much programming, that's why I'm more inclined to the Oxford DPhil. What is the job market like in the UK for quantitative investment management? And the US?

 

[martinbutler]

What about DE Shaw or Jane Street? How are their research departments?

 

[John Marks]

I like DE Shaw now that they've broadened their investments. I do not know Jane Street that much but it's a prop shop I think. I'm more interested in asset management than trading. Tough I could do an internship (attempt to at least) and try.

 

[Parallax]

John -

There are a fair amount of asset management shops in the UK. The level of research/quant needs vary from firm to firm, but it's a prominent financial spot outside of the US. There are hedge funds, traditional asset management firms, and then satellite offices (i.e., non headquarters) from many asset managers from the US.

Local firms in the general area include Schroders, Baillie Gifford, Standard Life...just to name a few.

If I were coming out of a decent PhD program in my late twenties, with applicable skills (this is key), I'd expect a salary in the lower range of $100k USD for the first year. That will rise overtime, but a huge chunk of pay will be coming from annual bonuses. The sky is really the limit. A couple/few hundred thousand ($USD) in a few years isn't out of the question. From there on out, you really need to be performing well and the firm needs to be successful.

 

[John Marks]

How are the quant's jobs like at banks, ie Goldman Sachs Strat, etc...?

 

[Parallax]

How are the quant's jobs like at banks, ie Goldman Sachs Strat, etc...?

I can't speak to their job availability nor pay. I'm not on that side of the business, but I assume others here can help.

 

[John Marks]

Interestingly, I got an offer today for credit analyst at JP Morgan here in Argentina. I will accept it as I have 6 months until the PhD starts. How is it the modeling like in the ib/non quant funds?

 

[martinbutler]

That sounds interesting. I think JP Morgan himself studied math. It's a different path though but you can try it. Let us know how you do and what you decide beacuse I'm in a similar situation and have some trouble deciding.

 

[Fer Carranza]

Modeling in Investment Banking is a completely different kind of modeling. It's doing DCFs or LBOs on spreadsheets. So you are only using the basic operators, and if you get fancy you'll use the IRR, or Mean functions. These models are only complicated because you need to come up with valutations, estimates, etc for the numbers to use, but it's only arithmetic.