Sales & Trading Summer Analyst Internship Question

MNRC · 11/23/13

Hi, I'd like to find out what are my chances of being accepted to a Sales & Trading Summer Analyst internship at a major bank, like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, or Credit Suisse?

I am currently studying for a MSc in Computer Science program at a top 20 school. I am almost 40 years old with about 10 years' experience as a web developer.

Is it easier to qualify for other types of internships, like Technology Analyst, given my age and degree?

Thank you in advance!

JulianT · 11/24/13

Someone of you experience should at least be shooting for an associate role, not analyst. My view, for what its worth,is that by shooting too low, you might actually hamper your chances. Besides that I would suggest playing your strengths. Your fellow analyst class will be 20 somethings and you will be reporting to people younger than you as a summer analyst. By looking in the technology department you would likely have a better chance of getting hired given your qualifications and you could potentially look at a gig higher in the food chain. That being said if you really want to do S&T, go for it, just apply for summer associate, not analyst.

pingu · 11/24/13

MNRC said:
Hi, I'd like to find out what are my chances of being accepted to a Sales & Trading Summer Analyst internship at a major bank, like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, or Credit Suisse?

I am currently studying for a MSc in Computer Science program at a top 20 school. I am almost 40 years old with about 10 years' experience as a web developer.

Almost 0.

Is it easier to qualify for other types of internships, like Technology Analyst, given my age and degree?

Thank you in advance!

Yes.

MNRC · 11/24/13

JulianT said:
Someone of you experience should at least be shooting for an associate role, not analyst. My view, for what its worth,is that by shooting too low, you might actually hamper your chances. Besides that I would suggest playing your strengths. Your fellow analyst class will be 20 somethings and you will be reporting to people younger than you as a summer analyst. By looking in the technology department you would likely have a better chance of getting hired given your qualifications and you could potentially look at a gig higher in the food chain. That being said if you really want to do S&T, go for it, just apply for summer associate, not analyst.

Thanks for your reply. What do you mean by a "gig higher in the food chain"? Are Technology Associates considered to be more valueable than Sales & Trading Associates? Or is the Technology Associate role viewed as more important by the firm?

MNRC · 11/25/13

Bumping up. I think other members here may have similar questions.

ygmwy · 11/26/13

I have to agree with pingu. You don't really have a shot at those types of roles unless you have some sort of relevant experience, or have done some sort of trading on your own. If you are only studying computer science, perhaps a job in big data is more for you. Finance companies have a need for this, but don't go for an Ms Comp Sci thinking that will get you an interview for a trading position. The few trading positions that exist where they are willing to teach you and help you along are mostly looking for 20 somethings right out of college that are willing to work hard. For someone of your experience, web development is, I'm sorry to say, irrelevant to a trading position.

I once had a friend go on a trading interview. When asked what kind of trading experience he had, he replied "not much, but I'd hope to learn more through this internship." The interviewer replied "That's bullshit. If you don't have experience, get it yourself. No one in this business is going to teach you or tell you what to do. Sign up for a brokerage account. Trade your own money. Sign up for a trading simulator if you have to. But don't come into a trading interview saying you want us to teach you." If this is your mentality, then you probably won't make it past an interview--assuming you get one.

MNRC · 11/26/13

wayoung said:
I have to agree with pingu. You don't really have a shot at those types of roles unless you have some sort of relevant experience, or have done some sort of trading on your own. If you are only studying computer science, perhaps a job in big data is more for you. Finance companies have a need for this, but don't go for an Ms Comp Sci thinking that will get you an interview for a trading position. The few trading positions that exist where they are willing to teach you and help you along are mostly looking for 20 somethings right out of college that are willing to work hard. For someone of your experience, web development is, I'm sorry to say, irrelevant to a trading position.

I once had a friend go on a trading interview. When asked what kind of trading experience he had, he replied "not much, but I'd hope to learn more through this internship." The interviewer replied "That's bullshit. If you don't have experience, get it yourself. No one in this business is going to teach you or tell you what to do. Sign up for a brokerage account. Trade your own money. Sign up for a trading simulator if you have to. But don't come into a trading interview saying you want us to teach you." If this is your mentality, then you probably won't make it past an interview--assuming you get one.

I do have experience managing a portfolio of 5-6 stocks in my IRA account with TD Ameritrade and manage a few mutual funds in a Vanguard account. I have been doing this for 10 years. My returns are ok (averages 10% annually) and the total amount is $15,000. However, I tend to take long positions, so maybe buy/sell 2 or 3 types of stocks a year. Does this experience count or are they looking for someone with more experience than this?

ygmwy · 11/26/13

It is a tough sell. The problem here is that you probably want an associate level role, but associates are given real responsibilities, and have to manage other associates. If you don't know the basics of trading risk management, then you can't really take on this kind of role. They will teach you maybe 10%, and you will be expected to already come in with 90% of the know-how. At an analyst level, even if you were a 20 something out of school, it's hard to justify your position in a Masters Comp Sci while going for a trading position, when you don't know much about trading. If your background doesn't show that you are 110% dedicated to trading, your interviewer is not going to like it.

You can try for analyst roles, but I don't think the big brand names will call you. I don't think the small firms will call you either, but good luck. If you do get the interview, just don't brag about your IRA, and your 10% return. You need to talk about trading intelligently, and demonstrate that you think like a professional trader. It is completely different from your IRA. As a professional trader, you need to be willing to wake up at 5am everyday, digest financial news like water, and manage much more than 5 equities. It is also about how well you manage risk. Even if you lose money, if you lost it in a responsible way, that is better than making 500% returns during a bubble. If you can somehow get on your resume or application that you are this kind of person, explain your choice of a masters degree, and then beat out those more well-equipped than you during an interview, then you might be able to secure an analyst level role in a small unknown firm-maybe. Honestly though, I have never ever heard of someone starting their trading career in their 40s. I have heard of traders retiring in their 30s though.

financeguy · 11/26/13

I've worked as a trader in a couple bulge bracket investment banks, and while I don't agree at all that you need to have some kind of trading experience to get hired into an entry level trading role, I must admit that getting a bank to hire you for that role at 40 is a tough one unfortunately - whether for an analyst or associate title - unless you're some kind of crazy genius. If your dream is to become a trader of some sort, I would recommend a strategy of getting hired as a systems / technology / development guy at a hedge fund with little red tape and throwing your hat in the ring after a year or two into that job. Not an easy one.

MNRC · 11/27/13

I was looking at the possibility of some kind of quantitative trading, where I can put a MSc in computer science (with many math electives) to good use.

Why doesn't anyone start trading at 40? Is it physically or mentally too demanding?

Ken Abbott · 11/27/13

MNRC said:
I was looking at the possibility of some kind of quantitative trading, where I can put a MSc in computer science (with many math electives) to good use.

Why doesn't anyone start trading at 40? Is it physically or mentally too demanding?

It is demanding and it is risky. It's easily the hardest job I've ever done.
It's also a line of work that attracts a lot of people who see it as a way to quick money, so firms look for a commitment to the industry, usually reflected in a genuine interest in the markets.

ygmwy · 11/27/13

If you really want to do this, why not take a course in algo trading, or quant trading (whichever one you want to do), and then either make friends with the professor, or someone in industry, and do it on your own. Given everything against you, if you don't have the motivation to learn everything on your own and do this, then you will never be hired by anyone else for an automated trading role. Honestly, automated trading strategies have been on the decline in large banks due to increasing regulations--at least from what I heard in my bank. I'm not an algo trader. Maybe someone else in the industry can give you more insight.

MNRC · 11/27/13

financeguy said:
I've worked as a trader in a couple bulge bracket investment banks, and while I don't agree at all that you need to have some kind of trading experience to get hired into an entry level trading role, I must admit that getting a bank to hire you for that role at 40 is a tough one unfortunately - whether for an analyst or associate title - unless you're some kind of crazy genius. If your dream is to become a trader of some sort, I would recommend a strategy of getting hired as a systems / technology / development guy at a hedge fund with little red tape and throwing your hat in the ring after a year or two into that job. Not an easy one.

Thanks, I keep hearing different things about age--that banks don't care as long as you know your stuff and can do a good job or that age is a significant barrier to entry. I guess in this case it's because analyst / associate positions are designed for younger applicants. The irony is that I had wanted to work in finance for almost 10 years but having majored in anthropology in college and now with web development experience nobody was going to hire me for a quant trading role. So, I had to go back to school to take prerequisite courses, study for the GRE, and get into a masters program at a target school. Throw in a couple of deaths in the family and you end up applying for internships at 38

Getting hired for a technology / developer sounds like the easiest route in my case. My cousin is also interested in working in quantitative trading--either as a trader or researcher. He's about 27. What degree would you recommend that he pursue? Is a MFE the best bet in his case?

Keith Tan · 11/27/13

This reminds of insurance. when age increases, risk premiums increases. translate to trading terms, an older person may be more risk averse than the average 20-ish fresh grad, adventurous and ready to take on any thing ... or risk.

ask yourself: when you're 40, what is your risk tolerance level? Can you afford to risk 80% of your savings to get an uncertain returns of say, 10%? If not, can you afford to lose your job? Of course, when you're 20 something your risk tolerance is totally way different. Hence the risk-reward ratio differ with age.

financeguy · 11/27/13

MNRC said:
Thanks, I keep hearing different things about age--that banks don't care as long as you know your stuff and can do a good job or that age is a significant barrier to entry. I guess in this case it's because analyst / associate positions are designed for younger applicants. The irony is that I had wanted to work in finance for almost 10 years but having majored in anthropology in college and now with web development experience nobody was going to hire me for a quant trading role. So, I had to go back to school to take prerequisite courses, study for the GRE, and get into a masters program at a target school. Throw in a couple of deaths in the family and you end up applying for internships at 38

Getting hired for a technology / developer sounds like the easiest route in my case. My cousin is also interested in working in quantitative trading--either as a trader or researcher. He's about 27. What degree would you recommend that he pursue? Is a MFE the best bet in his case?

Yeah the issue really is that these analyst programs are really designed for people fresh out of undergrad. People get in from one year masters degrees occasionally without work experience as well, but its pretty unusual for anyone over say 24 to enter one of these programs at that age. It has nothing to do with ability or risk tolerance. It's just one of those things that is not done, for better or worse. As for your cousin, I would first ask why he isn't having any luck getting a job so far. Assuming he needs some quant education and a great career center to get him access to firms, then sure maybe an MFE makes sense.

MNRC · 11/28/13

Has anyone ever heard of someone getting hired as a technology analyst at around 40?

C S · 11/28/13

MNRC said:
Has anyone ever heard of someone getting hired as a technology analyst at around 40?

Yes, close to 40 at any rate. It's not uncommon for people transitioning from academia to finance to be in at least their mid 30s.

MNRC · 12/2/13

C S said:
Yes, close to 40 at any rate. It's not uncommon for people transitioning from academia to finance to be in at least their mid 30s.

I'm not graduating with a PhD though, just a 2-year masters degree with about 10 years' experience as a web developer. Do you think any BBs or HFs would still offer me an internship or hire me full-time?

Should I apply for an associate role instead of analyst?

ygmwy · 12/2/13

MNRC said:
I'm not graduating with a PhD though, just a 2-year masters degree with about 10 years' experience as a web developer. Do you think any BBs or HFs would still offer me an internship or hire me full-time?

Should I apply for an associate role instead of analyst?

Usually those banks and Hedge Funds look for technology people who have experience working with financials. I used to be a recruiter, and I know that if a manager wants to hire a tech person, they will only like people whose last job was doing tech at a bank.

It doesn't hurt to try though. You don't have much of a shot at a more financial role like trading, but maybe for technology--and something where you can leverage your 10 years of work experience as a web developer. If the position is not relevant to your degree, or your web development, then it's gonna be tough. The thing is, you have to apply for jobs that you already have most of the know-how. You can't expect to be 38 and get into one of those internship programs where they teach you things, expose you to new stuff, and make you into an algo-trader from scratch. That's for the moldable 20-somethings in finance or financial engineering programs that will do whatever they are told, and soak up knowledge like a sponge.

Let us know if you get something though. I'd be very interested to hear where you applied and what you get.

MNRC · 12/2/13

wayoung said:
Usually those banks and Hedge Funds look for technology people who have experience working with financials. I used to be a recruiter, and I know that if a manager wants to hire a tech person, they will only like people whose last job was doing tech at a bank.

It doesn't hurt to try though. You don't have much of a shot at a more financial role like trading, but maybe for technology--and something where you can leverage your 10 years of work experience as a web developer. If the position is not relevant to your degree, or your web development, then it's gonna be tough. The thing is, you have to apply for jobs that you already have most of the know-how. You can't expect to be 38 and get into one of those internship programs where they teach you things, expose you to new stuff, and make you into an algo-trader from scratch. That's for the moldable 20-somethings in finance or financial engineering programs that will do whatever they are told, and soak up knowledge like a sponge.

Let us know if you get something though. I'd be very interested to hear where you applied and what you get.

Absolutely, I'll keep this thread updated with what I've applied to and what offers I get (if any). Just curious but is the Technology Analyst role a back-office role? I'd like to get into prop trading if at all possible (I know from replies I've gotten elsewhere it's a long shot), so probably going to apply to hedge funds.