COMPARE University of Toronto MMF vs University of Waterloo MQF

[YuZhao]

Hi guys,
I am looking at canadian graduate programs... Can anyone share some information on University of Waterloo and University of Toronto? I heard they are hard to get in...so what makes a good application?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Toronto MathFin - U of Toronto MMF Question

Hey Just started looking around at getting into Quant. I'm going into my Junior year at St. Francis Xavier, and will graduate with an Honors degree in Mathematics in 2011. I've been reading about the Master of Mathematical Finance at UofT program and see it is quite competitive. I just wanted...

www.quantnet.com

Toronto MathFin - Applicants for U of Toronto and York

Hey guys: I've applied for U of T MMF, U of Waterloo Quant Finance, York U Applied Math. Anyone also applied these schools? Please come in and we can share info of admission news or other. Thanks. David

www.quantnet.com

@Dibbs (maybe @corbin are in U of Toronto MMF program so they should be able to answer any specific questions you may have.

 

[corbin]

YuZhao,

I was recently one of the later admits to U of T so if you use my profile (which you can view through my previous posts) as a minimum you should be in the clear. Keep in mind that it appears to become more competitive every year. I did not apply to Waterloo (or anywhere else, risky eh?) but I believe it is slightly easier to get into than Toronto although they require an entrance exam. Feel free to pm me about question regarding the application process with U of T, I do no start the program until August. If you are looking in Canada you may want to check out McMaster as well.

 

[subhasishs]

Corbin:

I have received admission to the Mcmaster - Financial Mathematics program. I would like to know about its reputation in toronto area. In terms of quality of course work and job after graduation how is it rated?

Thanks

 

[iniesta]

I got into toronto but was rejected for waterloo, go figure. But ill be going to CMU anyways :p

 

[corbin]

Subhasishs

Although I am no expert, McMaster programs is newer, smaller (meaning fewer alumni) and overall the school has less prestige than that of U of T or Waterloo. They use the same textbook as U of T for stochastic calculus (although I think most schools use Shreve) so you will probably obtain a similar education. In my opinion McMaster biggest flaw is not incorporating an internship component in the program but if you already have experience it's not a big deal. Now for the good stuff. What school you go to only matters so much. When it comes to finding a job the onus is primarily on you. Regardless of where you go if you know your material, network till the point of harassment and can sell yourself in an interview you will land a good job. Good Luck!

 

[subhasishs]

Corbin:

Thanks a lot for your response. I am little concerned that upon graduation I may get stuck with risk analyst opportunities in Toronto area. What kind of roles (Trader, Researcher, Quant Developer etc.), do the UoT/UW graduates usually get upon graduation? Also, by looking at the list of employers hiring graduates from these campuses I noticed several big International Banks (eg. UBS, Deutsche, JPM etc.) missing from the list. Is it usually (I heard Toronto is mostly dominated by big five Canadian banks) the case or it is one of those rare cases? Again, your thoughts and suggestions are highly appreciated.

 

[J-R]

There are many posts about Toronto MMF and Waterloo MQF, and I thought it could be useful to make a short summary of what I found and see if people agree with it. I also have a follow up question concerning the importance of "brand" and future prospects...

My main conclusion is that the difference between the two programs is of order epsilon. The tuition at Waterloo is cheaper (3 X $3,605) vs $41,300 at Toronto, but Toronto is 3 terms vs 4 terms at Waterloo, so your extra 4 months income working probably make up the difference. Both include a one term internship (pretty much a guarantee... on Bay Street) which should give you back around $16,000-$20,000. Toronto seems to be more applied with a focus on risk management while Waterloo is more theoretical. People that intend to pursue a PhD tend to prefer Waterloo. I am also under the impression that Waterloo is more diverse in what it teaches and covers more given that it has an extra term to do so. Both have an excellent reputation in Canada. The main reason Toronto seems to be preferred by most students is its international reputation. Waterloo really doesn't seem to resonate much on Wall Street versus Toronto (which is ranked 14 in the 2011 QuantNet ranking).

Here is my question now. How important is the last point: international recognition? My goal is to work on Bay Street initially, so it should not matter too much a priori. However, I am scared that if I desire to move to Wall Street in the future, a lesser known program as Waterloo might hurt me. Is it fair to say that the "brand" of your MFE program doesn't matter after few years of experience?

I got accepted at Waterloo this morning and I am still waiting the hear from Toronto. I tend to favor Waterloo, but this last point is bugging me a bit.

 

[jondan]

Here is my 2cent, once you already have experience, where you studied for your MFE doesn't matter any more. I have a friend who study from University of Regina, however he still can be head hunted to work in Wall Street after he got a few years of experience in his bag and build a good reputation among his network. People went to "brand" school because they may easier get a first step into quant, if you really want to work in Bay Street first, Waterloo or Toronto reputation seems to be equal

 

[Dismantler]

If your goal is quant research then Waterloo is probably a better choice. As you already noted Uoft's MMF is more applied and oriented towards risk management. If you go to UofT and intend to do a phD later on then you will need to follow up on more Math courses ( these are the words from a phD student at UofT who graduated from the MMF program.)

 

[J-R]

jondan: Thank for confirming what I thought with an example... very reassuring.

Dismantler: No, I don't plan to do a PhD in quant research. I already have a PhD in Physics and I feel that is enough academic research for me. I am not completely set on what kind of quant work I want to do later, but I'd like something that involves a fair share of analysis and programing. Right now, with limited knowledge, I feel that I would prefer to do something around quantitative asset management/portfolio optimization (without necessarily being a trader). But again, I am completely open, and I think that this goal might change as I learn more about the positions that are out there. In this respect, I feel Waterloo will do a better job at letting me know what is out there versus being rushed into risk management. Not that I despise risk management, but I like having options and choices.

 

[viv_d]

I, too, am considering between these two programs, but probably I'm going to take the Toronto one. I'm from UW, some of my graduate friends in the program told me that the courses (STAT 901, 902) are just too theoretical, and unless you plan to be a quant, these courses won't be too useful. But again, if you want to be a quant, probably you should choose a phd program instead the MQF or MMF. Also, in the US, UT has a much better reputation than UW because of its history and faculty (John Hull!!!). I'm not sure if I will go to the US after graduate, but I definitely don't want to lose the chance... Another disadvantage of UW is the location. UT is right there in downtown Toronto, and it's so convenient for interviewing, networking, conferences and etc and UW can't really compete. I'd say Waterloo is a pretty good city if you want to do IT work, but not financial...

 

[jondan]

actually both Waterloo and Toronto are regional programs, I do not think there is much difference if you plan to work in Canada and later move to US if possible at all, US employers do not care where you studied in Canada when you are already an experienced one, they care about your achievement and your communication skills and reputation among your peers. But if you want to immediately enter the financial industry in US, then better take a good US MFE program since that will open door for you to network with employers and get the foot into the industry

 

[eclipseYan]

Hi J-R so have you got the interview invitation from UT? and when do you plan to reply to UW whether you'll take it or not？

 

[viv_d]

Hi J-R so have you got the interview invitation from UT? and when do you plan to reply to UW whether you'll take it or not？

Did you get an interview with UT or the offer from UW? My UT interview is on Mar 13th.

 

[eclipseYan]

Did you get an interview with UT or the offer from UW? My UT interview is on Mar 13th.

I got both. also on Mar 13th. ：）mind giving me your email or fb?

 

[J-R]

Good point about highlighting the advantages of living downtown Toronto versus Waterloo. I should have mentioned that in the summary. I just realized that it might be a pain to move for 4 months in the summer to do the internship in Toronto and then move back to Waterloo for the last 4 months...

However, I tend to agree with jondan, that after you get some work experience in Canada, Toronto or Waterloo makes no difference long term. Also, it seems to be very hard to get something in the US right after completing either program. So if you go for one of these programs, I think you should assume that you will start your career on Bay Street.

viv_d, I am very curious about your comment on Waterloo being "too theoretical" if you don't want to be a quant. If I do MMF or MQF, of course I want to become a quant! What other kind of work are you expecting to get that is not quant after these programs (let say we include risk management in quant)? Maybe we just have a different definition of what quant means?

eclipseYan: I didn't get any interview at UofT yet, but that seems to be the case of everybody outside the Toronto area (https://www.quantnet.com/forum/thre...nto-2012-entrance-exam.8803/page-2#post-83463). The more I think about it, the less I know where I want to go between the two (assuming Toronto makes an offer). I have up to the end of March to give my answer at Waterloo.

 

[J-R]

I got both. also on Mar 13th. ：）mind giving me your email or fb?

So which one do you think you will take... if you end up with the choice?

 

[eclipseYan]

I think MQF is a great program. Also professors at UW is very nice and helpful. students in that program spend most of the time working together and willing to help with one another. Also being theoretical isn't a drawback, it just means you have to spend more extra hours on the course materials. I don't know much about the UT's MMF. the location is definately an advantage so is the international reputation. I won't bother worrying about the choice before UT gives me their decision. I may just pray they reject me so that I can go to UW without regret lol ...well I'm kidding..

 

[J-R]

I think MQF is a great program. Also professors at UW is very nice and helpful. students in that program spend most of the time working together and willing to help with one another. Also being theoretical isn't a drawback, it just means you have to spend more extra hours on the course materials. I don't know much about the UT's MMF. the location is definately an advantage so is the international reputation. I won't bother worrying about the choice before UT gives me their decision. I may just pray they reject me so that I can go to UW without regret lol ...well I'm kidding..

So you didn't get accepted at UW yet, just got an interview offer? Also, how come do you know so much about UW? Did you go there for your undergrad? In any case, any extra info you have about the program, please share. It is very useful.

I also agree that being more theoritical isn't a draw back at all!