COMPARE University of Toronto MMF vs Columbia University MSOR

[Yueliang]

hi, guys:

like the title indicated, I got offers from both of them. And my dream job is doing IB and/or quant at hedgefund. which one should i go tho? i will list some pros&cons that i know of, correct me if im wrong.

Columbia MSOR
pro:
highly reputable school, close to NYC(the place i want to work at), good professors(i think some professors r the same as their FE program), good network
con:
expensive tuition(O_O), not really directly related to quant (major disadvantage comparing to FE from Columbia, CMU, NYU, etc), job placement uncertain

U of Toronto MMF
pro:
highly related to the industry(more in risk management side tho), cheaper, job placement guarenteed(according to history, almost 100% and with minimum salary of 70 to 80 k CAD)
con:
NOT IN US, school relatively unrecognized if i want to work in US in the future, no challenge

So, does any1 know the job placement condition for this program? I have read some postings saying it's an extremely large class of about 150 students, and kinda unorganized as well. Not sure if it's really worth it.

Any insights?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Regarding placement at U Toronto MMF, @Dibbs has posted something here. He is a current student there.
MSOR placement has been unknown. It causes lot of uncertainty and anxiety among students considering the program.

Your analysis clearly shows it's a choice of Bay Street vs Wall Street. Moving from the first to the second is easier said than done.

 

[onthesc]

The MSOR at Columbia takes in 150+ student each year, and a lot of them are not doing the MSOR to get into finance. The IEOR Dept at Columbia might not want to invest their resources into making an employment profile for each class, like they do at any MBA programs. The demand for the stats just aren't there (except on qnet :D). However, seeing how competition in the MFE is heating up, the programs might start to provide better marketing materials, i hope.

 

[onthesc]

Oh and personally I would choose Columbia over U of T all day any day. Just not a competition in terms of brand in the US, or in the world for that matter. Take a look at the variety of classes the IEOR department offers at Columbia, you'd be surprised how finance-oriented the engineering program is.

 

[Forza]

@Yueliang,

Also keep in mind, you will have to compete against other students in taking some of the courses (MBA courses for ex). And like others such as Andy have touched on, I don't think the MSOR program is the best of fits if you intend to be a hardcore quant. But the number and variety of courses as mentioned by onthesc and the ability to stretch the program into 3 semesters does make it interesting....

Best of luck on your decision and let us know if you decide to go to MSOR, as I am trying to get a group of folks together before the program start date for a little meet and greet.

 

[goldski]

The chance of getting a job from Columbia MSOR is slim if you are not good at networking and using the school's name to your advantage. The chance of getting a job from Toronto MMF is almost guaranteed. Students have gone to be placed at RBC,UBS,Scotia Capital,BMO,Algorithmics,etc.

Also, Toronto is a good name and people in New York know about it. But, if you want to be in NYC 100% rather than have peace of mind of getting a job during your program then goto a U Toronto.

 

[Yueliang]

hi, guys, thx all for the great insights.
@goldski
u said the chances of getting a job is slim, is there any proof? or personal experiences?

 

[goldski]

Read threads here or go talk to students in the program and you will see.

 

[Sherlock]

I would go with Columbia. The prestige it gives u is far superior. If you are determined enough you will find a good job with both I guess, but how many times in your life you get an offer from Columbia? This is just my personal opinion.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Best of luck on your decision and let us know if you decide to go to MSOR, as I am trying to get a group of folks together before the program start date for a little meet and greet.

Count me in. I don't live too far from the campus.
@Yueliang
Can you add your timelines to our Tracker?
Whenever you make up your mind of which program to join, please be sure to mark it as your Final Destination as well.

 

[Forza]

On the prestige issue, it is definitely great, but you have to go with the best fit. It is not very useful if it doesn't get you the job that you want.

Hey Andy, will definitely let you know when the time comes. Maybe some others too from the MFE and other CU programs can join us as well.

 

[amanda.jayne]

Do you want to work in the US or Canada?

Do you want to be an I-Banker or a quant?

The answer to these should help you decide....

Which begs the question: if your dream job is IB, why did you apply for the MMF and MSOR?

 

[Marcel]

Can anyone give any suggestions on which is better if I would like to work in financial industry? Do anyone know the reputation of Columbia OR in banks both in US and out of US ?(Since the program is not MFE, will it still be recognised by the financial industries?)
I know the working placement of Toronto is excellent. How about Columbia OR? Is it a large chance for me to find an internship if I join that program (by the way I have no work or internship in financial industry before and I am an international student)?

 

[Canuck]

Well it really depends on what you want to do and where you want to work.

First
If you want to manage money, work in an i-bank then Toronto is better suited.
If you want to manage risk and be more back office then Columbia is the better choice.

Second
You have to take into account that contrary to popular belief, it is actually harder to immigrate to Canada than it is to immigrate to the US (L'exception c'est si tu parles le francais.). So getting a work permit to work in Canada, after you grad from Toronto, is non-trivial.
Whereas in the States, given that your program is a STEM, then getting a work permit might not be as difficult.

These questions are something that only you can answer. Although, if you do come to Toronto, I'll be sure to do my best to help you out.

 

[Advait]

Michael seems to have a bias for Toronto MMF. I would likely to politely disagree. If you intend to work in Canada, obviously Toronto MMF is the better choice as Michael points out! But if you want to work in the US, especially NY, no argument, let alone a weak one stating that US immigration is easier than Canadian Immigration stands forth with regards to trying to justify that Toronto MMF can be preferred over Columbia MSOR. Why would you want to go to Toronto with the idea of working in the US hoping that you've got a chance since the US Immigration laws are more lenient ?

You ought to make your decision now! Decided where you want to work and choose accordingly. Toronto MMF's ability to place students in Canada, primarily in Toronto is amazing! Almost all the firms around the Toronto area hire actively at Toronto MMF. So job placement is almost a certainty. Also, there are quite a few Asset management firms around Toronto. So if that's a role you like, lean towards Toronto. Lot of Commodities trading goes on in Canada so that's another area you could look into.

Also, there is a distinct difference in the pay culture in the two countries. Canada is a bit like Europe where your bonuses will be limited, your salaries in a typical bracket rather than completely conforming to your innate ability, taxation laws favoring people with poor dependents more so than in the US and nationalization of schools and medical care means additional payments to the government to cover for these even if you need them or not. Its almost like an amalgamation of socialism and capitalism.

On the other hand, Columbia/NYU gives you the best chance to join a top BB even more so than Toronto does in Canada in my opinion. However, its risky. Since Career Services isn't great there, it almost seems like you either hit a home-run leveraging Columbia's brand name successfully or don't even move base with regards to your job placement i.e. you either land a great prestigious job or you land almost nothing at all. I've hardly come across in-between roles from my friends (and their friends) who graduated in the last 3 years !

Also, for all things equal getting interviews as a MSOR graduate would be significantly harder than MSFE at Columbia. Moreover, the small class size at Toronto compared to Columbia implies less competition and more exposure and attention!

 

[Canuck]

So job placement is almost a certainty.

What are the weakest points about this program? This program is mainly focused on risk management. And it's hard for students(especially international students) to find a job immediately after graduation in America.

From the toronto mmf review.

 

[Canuck]

Advait, I think you need to do some more research :

Canada is a bit like Europe where your bonuses will be limited, your salaries in a typical bracket rather than completely conforming to your innate ability

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comm...lands-limits-on-corporate-pay/article9584121/
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/commentary/canada-breaks-ranks-bankers-bonuses
So bonus limits don't exist, and Canada actively fought back against them in 2009.

taxation laws favoring people with poor dependents more so than in the US

Although Canada has a high income tax rate (45% for top earners). Canada does not have an estate or death tax, unlike the States. Canada also has some absurd laws regarding the taxation of dividends. In fact it is possible for an individual to earn 50,000$ and pay 0$ in taxes.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...-in-earned-dividends-0-in-tax/article4599950/
We also have things like the Tax Free Savings Account, which is exactly what it sounds like.
So in terms of generational capital preservation Canada is one of the best first world countries to live in. It could be argued that our tax laws actually favor the rich!

nationalization of schools

Private schools exist in Canada.

Of course Canada has some negative aspects, our health care system needs urgent reform and we need to re-visit various internal issues. But making exaggerated claims about the country is not kosher.

 

[Advait]

So job placement is almost a certainty. QuantNet said: ↑ What are the weakest points about this program? This program is mainly focused on risk management. And it's hard for students(especially international students) to find a job immediately after graduation in America. From the toronto mmf review.

I obviously implied "a certainty" IN CANADA given what I wrote just before what you quoted!

 

[Advait]

Also, if I remember correctly from what I was told, you are charged Medicare Premiums on your pay directly in Canada whereas in the US its charged indirectly upon a US inhabitant in the form of Fiscal deficit in Medicare debt. The Canadian version almost seems to be a direct forced National Health Insurance policy charge. Please correct me if I am wrong.

@ Tax Free Saving Accounts : I believe the same effect of this can be achieved in the US by investing in tax exempt bonds/mutual funds (some partially exempt say if it invested primarily in alternative energy while others completely exempt) so it isn't unique to Canada per say!

I'm not too sure how Marcel is going to end up with a job in Canada which will force him to crank up on dividend payments and save on tax by using tax credits for the firm he'd work. (assuming he'd end up with a similar job in the US after Columbia and lose money in taxes which is highly unrealistic) He obviously has a choice to invest his personal savings in Canada to earn dividends and pay no tax or do the same in the US and he'd be capable of doing either of them regardless of whether he was in the US or Canada.

The same line of thought as an argument applies to death tax and real estate tax. If he wants to take advantage of this, he most likely will do so in his personal life rather rather than professional one and taking advantage of this does not require him to be in Canada.

Bonuses : Bonuses are taxed at the same rate as income in Canada. If you get a huge bonus, your almost gonna be taxed at the 45% rate or round about that figure and that's significantly higher than the bonus tax rate in the US as it is today; so take your pick (considering finance is a profession predominantly driven by bonuses)

 

[Advait]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comm...lands-limits-on-corporate-pay/article9584121/ http://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/commentary/canada-breaks-ranks-bankers-bonuses So bonus limits don't exist, and Canada actively fought back against them in 2009.

Yes, I admit I was incorrect about this. I misinterpreted what I was told. I believe what my friend intended to tell me was that financial firms in Canada overall as compared to their similar counterparts do not offer the same potential for high bonuses primarily since the biggest deals and sales and trading takes place in US; so when the market is moving upwards they reap in the maximum benefit but when it crashes, they suffer the most as well. Also, she reckoned that the raise in base salaries lags a bit as you climb up the ladder in BBs as compared to their US counterpart offices. But, she was bullish about the fact that the Canadian Dollar would strengthen against the US Dollar in the coming years and this would negate the effect of the slight lag as it stands today.

The remaining arguments you make are slightly irrelevant to the main dilemma at hand in my opinion as pointed out in my previous post.