Confused about options for maths graduates

[BanachL]

I'm in my 3rd year in a maths degree in a leading UK university.

I'm getting a wide variety of contradictory advice from people. I've programmed in various languages (C++, Java, PHP, Python) since I was 15 and used this in a summer job for the maths department on a fluid mechanics simulation project using numerical methods to solve PDEs, amongst other things.

Areas like data science and quant finance sound appealing but I'm getting a lot of contradictory views.

On one end of the spectrum some people suggest I could drop my degree and walk into an analytics firm if I talk my maths skills up (this was because the person in question is a project manager that got a job within weeks of dropping his degree) and that even if whatever industry I'm in fails I will walk into another no bother as tons of industries use maths and mathematicians are in short supply.

On the other end people are suggesting I need to do X,Y and Z and even then that it will take a few months after finishing an MSc or PhD to get an offer. For instance a family friend that is a quant suggests that A) I will need to make my mind up now to do an MSc or PhD and B) if I pick a topic in a PhD or do a masters subject where there is no market demand for the skills I'm screwed unless I can find another area that uses the skills I developed in said MSc or PhD. He's not just referring to quant finance but most maths roles, it appears, except stuff like actuary. In fact, he says, even if I land a job that uses maths if the industry I'm in goes tits up it is possible but not straightforward to simply find another area that uses my skills and not unheard of to wind up back in school doing another masters or a PhD. And a lot of people in many areas comment on this perceived risk in doing a PhD when looking for a job, not just Sheldon Cooper types that I wouldn't employ to get me a glass of water.

Most views tend to be either "maths you say! OMG!!! the sky is the limit! Have you not heard?" or complete opposite where people say I'm playing a dicey game and to expect a risk of unemployment even if I make all the right moves and even if I have valuable internship/placement experience. There's very few that give "in between" views.

Was wondering what members on this forum think?

 

[Daniel Duffy]

On one end of the spectrum some people suggest I could drop my degree

Not a good idea. You'll live to regret it.

 

[tfors]

I'm in my 3rd year in a maths degree in a leading UK university.

I'm getting a wide variety of contradictory advice from people. I've programmed in various languages (C++, Java, PHP, Python) since I was 15 and used this in a summer job for the maths department on a fluid mechanics simulation project using numerical methods to solve PDEs, amongst other things.

Areas like data science and quant finance sound appealing but I'm getting a lot of contradictory views.

On one end of the spectrum some people suggest I could drop my degree and walk into an analytics firm if I talk my maths skills up (this was because the person in question is a project manager that got a job within weeks of dropping his degree) and that even if whatever industry I'm in fails I will walk into another no bother as tons of industries use maths and mathematicians are in short supply.

On the other end people are suggesting I need to do X,Y and Z and even then that it will take a few months after finishing an MSc or PhD to get an offer. For instance a family friend that is a quant suggests that A) I will need to make my mind up now to do an MSc or PhD and B) if I pick a topic in a PhD or do a masters subject where there is no market demand for the skills I'm screwed unless I can find another area that uses the skills I developed in said MSc or PhD. He's not just referring to quant finance but most maths roles, it appears, except stuff like actuary. In fact, he says, even if I land a job that uses maths if the industry I'm in goes tits up it is possible but not straightforward to simply find another area that uses my skills and not unheard of to wind up back in school doing another masters or a PhD. And a lot of people in many areas comment on this perceived risk in doing a PhD when looking for a job, not just Sheldon Cooper types that I wouldn't employ to get me a glass of water.

Most views tend to be either "maths you say! OMG!!! the sky is the limit! Have you not heard?" or complete opposite where people say I'm playing a dicey game and to expect a risk of unemployment even if I make all the right moves and even if I have valuable internship/placement experience. There's very few that give "in between" views.

Was wondering what members on this forum think?

I think the first chap was meaning "actuary stuff", so they are not in disagreement.

 

[ADT]

Finish your degree - unless you are a genius savant with multiple math Olympiad gold medals and also an international chess champion... then disregard and feel free to drop that degree xD

 

[Philip_Mitterrand]

Not finishing off a first degree suggests that you lack the discipline to complete something you have started. It says more about your work ethics & commitment level than intellect. It's much easier to finish off that constantly fight that bias against you if you drop off.

I'm in my 3rd year in a maths degree in a leading UK university.

I'm getting a wide variety of contradictory advice from people. I've programmed in various languages (C++, Java, PHP, Python) since I was 15 and used this in a summer job for the maths department on a fluid mechanics simulation project using numerical methods to solve PDEs, amongst other things.

Areas like data science and quant finance sound appealing but I'm getting a lot of contradictory views.

On one end of the spectrum some people suggest I could drop my degree and walk into an analytics firm if I talk my maths skills up (this was because the person in question is a project manager that got a job within weeks of dropping his degree) and that even if whatever industry I'm in fails I will walk into another no bother as tons of industries use maths and mathematicians are in short supply.

On the other end people are suggesting I need to do X,Y and Z and even then that it will take a few months after finishing an MSc or PhD to get an offer. For instance a family friend that is a quant suggests that A) I will need to make my mind up now to do an MSc or PhD and B) if I pick a topic in a PhD or do a masters subject where there is no market demand for the skills I'm screwed unless I can find another area that uses the skills I developed in said MSc or PhD. He's not just referring to quant finance but most maths roles, it appears, except stuff like actuary. In fact, he says, even if I land a job that uses maths if the industry I'm in goes tits up it is possible but not straightforward to simply find another area that uses my skills and not unheard of to wind up back in school doing another masters or a PhD. And a lot of people in many areas comment on this perceived risk in doing a PhD when looking for a job, not just Sheldon Cooper types that I wouldn't employ to get me a glass of water.

Most views tend to be either "maths you say! OMG!!! the sky is the limit! Have you not heard?" or complete opposite where people say I'm playing a dicey game and to expect a risk of unemployment even if I make all the right moves and even if I have valuable internship/placement experience. There's very few that give "in between" views.

Was wondering what members on this forum think?

 

[Liam]

On one end of the spectrum some people suggest I could drop my degree and walk into an analytics firm if I talk my maths skills up (this was because the person in question is a project manager that got a job within weeks of dropping his degree) and that even if whatever industry I'm in fails I will walk into another no bother as tons of industries use maths and mathematicians are in short supply.

Something tells me you don't really believe any of this crap. Work on coming across better as a few members here think you are about to drop your degree.

I'm not sure about exactly how these conversations happened but many people out there are disgruntled by whatever degree they did so look up at degrees like maths. They usually have to shit angry advice on graduates to make up for failings or as they never got over being made grovel for piddly little jobs following their own graduation. They usually have no clue and probably think actuary, analytics, risk, quant are all the same thing and interchangeable terms. Hell they probably even think accountant and acupuncturist are the same thing as those jobs. Some people are just daft ignorant pigs.

Anyway, in terms of steps forward...

You need to understand market logic before making choices. When looking at a target industry it helps to understand that many mathematical roles require you to be able to get to work straight away. This is why MSc or PhDs are often sought after. It's got shite all to do with competition. I was using modelling techniques from my masters for a pricing project within 3 days of joining my first firm and had already built RM queries on day 2. You simply could not hire a BA and train them up unless they were an IMO veteran with a penchant for financial maths and published work. Hiring managers didn't see me as an MSc per se but as someone with C++ skills that had priced derivatives and that was in touch with the markets.

Other stuff like actuary will probably involve entering graduate schemes and won't demand the same in terms of hiring criteria but in any case I would always finish what I started. Finish your degree and don't let wanting a career get in the way of studies at any level. A trap MSc students sometimes fall into is thinking upping application numbers while studying for exams will give them a role as they are afraid of finishing with no job, thus distracting from exams and winding up with neither job nor MSc. I'm not sure about PhDs but I definitely saw some bozos in my MSc try the blanket application approach when they should have been polishing their thesis and studying.

Do look at examples of models or processes used in industries now as you're not under pressure and listen to your mind and body and do a PhD if you really want to do research in stuff that interests you, or otherwise a related MSc. Learn to be discerning - I get the same feel of overly positive or negative from people but with a little standing back and investigation you can figure it out.

There is a lot of advice on threads like this to not do a PhD if you have a job in mind, but I wonder as the only people I've seen drop PhDs were either people that got a job then dropped it or the handful of classic "a bit like Sheldon Cooper - knows physics, maths and C++ inside out but otherwise thick as pigshit" cases I've met, as opposed to people doing a PhD in financial maths with quant roles in mind.

 

[Philip_Mitterrand]

90% of masters are conjobs. A good rule of thumb, if you can learn the materials with a University Library membership then pretty much its a waste of money to pay thousands of $.
Also, MSc level thesis are total fluffs and it's a good way to keep the unproductive teaching staffs occupied.

You need to understand market logic before making choices. When looking at a target industry it helps to understand that many mathematical roles require you to be able to get to work straight away. This is why MSc or PhDs are often sought after. It's got shite all to do with competition. I was using modelling techniques from my masters for a pricing project within 3 days of joining my first firm and had already built RM queries on day 2. You simply could not hire a BA and train them up unless they were an IMO veteran with a penchant for financial maths and published work. Hiring managers didn't see me as an MSc per se but as someone with C++ skills that had priced derivatives and that was in touch with the markets.

Other stuff like actuary will probably involve entering graduate schemes and won't demand the same in terms of hiring criteria but in any case I would always finish what I started. Finish your degree and don't let wanting a career get in the way of studies at any level. A trap MSc students sometimes fall into is thinking upping application numbers while studying for exams will give them a role as they are afraid of finishing with no job, thus distracting from exams and winding up with neither job nor MSc. I'm not sure about PhDs but I definitely saw some bozos in my MSc try the blanket application approach when they should have been polishing their thesis and studying.
.

 

[pingu]

90% of masters are conjobs. A good rule of thumb, ...

A good rule of thumb is, can they help you get a job? Check the programs employment stats if the publish them. Eliminate automatically any program that doesn't provide employment statistics. Do some independent research on your own about this. Then, target the programs with high employment rate.

 

[Philip_Mitterrand]

Most programs BS on employmemnt stats... 90% of the candidates found job in x months...what if you re in the 10% ? Statistics can be massaged in infinite ways. The lower you go on the league tables the harder you need to kiss arse of recruiters and yet the Uni will include you in the 90% gleefully if you found a job of your own strife. I wait for the day when there are some conventants embeded in the tution bills as a insurance policy for the buyers.

A good rule of thumb is, can they help you get a job? Check the programs employment stats if the publish them. Eliminate automatically any program that doesn't provide employment statistics. Do some independent research on your own about this. Then, target the programs with high employment rate.

 

[Liam]

Most programs BS on employmemnt stats... 90% of the candidates found job in x months...what if you re in the 10% ? Statistics can be massaged in infinite ways. The lower you go on the league tables the harder you need to kiss arse of recruiters and yet the Uni will include you in the 90% gleefully if you found a job of your own strife. I wait for the day when there are some conventants embeded in the tution bills as a insurance policy for the buyers.

There are a lot of conjobs out there for sure. And even when it's not a con job the careers service tends to sleazily overstate and massage statistics. Complain about it and you get beaten with a "you lazy unemployed moron" stick from people who know zip about industry.

The "What are they doing now?" chart my MSc college produces is complete fraud as the college only ask 12 months after graduation and make it look the whole class had a lovely job lined up around exam time, when in reality 1 guy had an offer before exam time. It worked out for me as I came across an agency that helped me prep for quant roles and they placed me within 2 months (3 months after leaving), but many went into the MSc based on false data prepared by a careers service that probably think there's just one job in financial services called "finance".

I think a better idea than looking at flawed stats would be to find graduates from the MSc and speak to them (or just ask on forums like this). That is hard to get but with the masters I did people from my undergrad 1-2 years ahead had done it and all been placed in top banks or hedge funds in quant and risk roles reasonably quickly.

I met someone that dropped out of a "business" MSc in the same uni around the time I started as she met people that had done her MSc and had gotten nothing out of it 2-4 years on. This kind of independent research is hard to fake. The chart she got for "what are they doing now?" it turned out slapped in what part timers were doing as a main job, which they had been doing anyway and made it look like they got into roles thanks to the MSc when that was not the case. Graduates fed back to her how the college did it's sleazy survey full of loaded questions and one even complained that the college had twisted it's report by changing the wording of his job title to make it sound like he'd gotten it because of the MSc, when he had gotten the role in spite of doing such a bad course.

To the uninformed observer it looked that we had both entered with the same chance of landing a job.

But certain things only genuine MSc programs can produce - can they bring in a local firm and graduates from the MSc that are working there? This was something the guy that ran my MSc could do while the con job I mention was devoid of careers fairs or any opportunities to meet graduates.

 

[Liam]

I wait for the day when there are some conventants embeded in the tution bills as a insurance policy for the buyers.

This would make sense. It doesn't cover opportunity cost of a hole on the CV, but at least a fair portion of the money can be returned which is a standard term of service contracts. I know a quant CV writer that specialises in tech and data science. He often offers to delay fees for his CV rewrite until the client completes the desired move especially if the client is unemployed and/or cash poor, for instance.

Another idea would be to do a government sponsored program. I'm not sure how good they are in general but I do know one biostatistician that got into the field using a subsidised MSc.

The cynic inside me says it will never happen. Social change happens when the majority of the population are getting burnt by a problem or a minority gains the majority's sympathy. The majority of the population don't do an MSc or otherwise get burnt by the fees and seem to baselessly assume unemployed MSc students are "too picky", "shirkers" or doing something wrong. And even if such covenants are put in place and even if they are on tangible conditions, like any insurance, there always are ways to not pay the student back as the premise (ie the MSc didn't give them the right exposure) is seen as subjective.

 

[Philip_Mitterrand]

95% of academic programs would fail the due diligence test of but then only approx 5% of the student population does this kind of stress testing before joining the programs. Deservedly, you pay a big $ to unmask your own stupidity.

I think a better idea than looking at flawed stats would be to find graduates from the MSc and speak to them (or just ask on forums like this). That is hard to get but with the masters I did people from my undergrad 1-2 years ahead had done it and all been placed in top banks or hedge funds in quant and risk roles reasonably quickly.

I met someone that dropped out of a "business" MSc in the same uni around the time I started as she met people that had done her MSc and had gotten nothing out of it 2-4 years on. This kind of independent research is hard to fake.

 

[BanachL]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I wasn't planning on dropping my degree, just wondering what the landscape is like. I'll proceed with caution. As Liam mentioned keeping in touch with alumni may help, which I was already doing. We often do some classes with guys 1-2 years ahead and I've stayed in touch.

Just out if curiosity how well did your classmates do?

 

[Liam]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I wasn't planning on dropping my degree, just wondering what the landscape is like. I'll proceed with caution. As Liam mentioned keeping in touch with alumni may help, which I was already doing. We often do some classes with guys 1-2 years ahead and I've stayed in touch.

Just out if curiosity how well did your classmates do?

Most of my undergraduate classmates wound up in decent careers. This is why the uninformed tend to jump up and down about maths degrees. Similar for theoretical physics (I transferred out of that into maths).

But it's not like medicine or law where there is a "track" that once followed will get you employed and it's a lot more ad-hoc in terms of employment. Underneath that employment it isn't as rosy as it looks. There's plenty of examples of jobs being hard to get - most quants took ages to get work, albeit relocating to London cut that stuff short for me.

The PhDs all graduated around the start of the credit crunch and many aspiring quants entered into actuary instead as it became very tough to become a quant (it was already tough as it was), albeit some toughed it out and became quants. Other than 2 senior actuaries that have made their peace with the career, most want to get out - one of those 2 guys inundates me with the number of wanks he has each day in the office such is his boredom with his job (we call them "cumming updates") so I really don't buy his "using maths in a job is overrated" spiel.

One thing LinkedIn profiles hide well is all the gaps and issues. Several wound up in tight spots in their careers and some ran their own businesses for a while when getting out of that hole. One got out of self employment and is a business developer, having been 2 years self employed and prior to that a senior trader. One friend is doing a PhD having spent years not using the degree. He was an MBA style analyst, having started in HR, and every option he looked at to get out involved doing an MSc or PhD as his experience counted for nothing in maths roles and he eventually took the plunge. One thing he notes about it is that a PhD is really a job, something his first MSc wasn't.

I have to reiterate - do your due diligence properly. Parents or other idiots giving unsolicited advice think the question "what are your classmates doing?" is clever. It isn't. Ask what recent alumni are doing 2-4 years on instead. Especially if you do a PhD and only 1 or 2 classmates from your undergrad are working. I know a PhD physicist that claims at one point the employed contingent class consisted of a dropout MSc that was an accountant (ie not using the degree) and a guy that worked in German porn. I don't think any classmates were rushing to do accountancy exams or practice BDSM with Leaderhousen somehow, but he does say his parents used it as leverage to repeatedly bully him as their take on the matter was "oh, so your degree is useless then?". If you get treated like this, set boundaries. Also don't expect people to wake up when you get work - people still foist abusive and baseless advice on me because they cannot admit they have no clue.

 

[Liam]

Most of my undergraduate classmates wound up in decent careers. This is why the uninformed tend to jump up and down about maths degrees. Similar for theoretical physics (I transferred out of that into maths).

But it's not like medicine or law where there is a "track" that once followed will get you employed and it's a lot more ad-hoc in terms of employment. Underneath that employment it isn't as rosy as it looks. There's plenty of examples of jobs being hard to get - most quants took ages to get work, albeit relocating to London cut that stuff short for me.

The PhDs all graduated around the start of the credit crunch and many aspiring quants entered into actuary instead as it became very tough to become a quant (it was already tough as it was), albeit some toughed it out and became quants. Other than 2 senior actuaries that have made their peace with the career, most want to get out - one of those 2 guys inundates me with the number of wanks he has each day in the office such is his boredom with his job (we call them "cumming updates") so I really don't buy his "using maths in a job is overrated" spiel.

One thing LinkedIn profiles hide well is all the gaps and issues. Several wound up in tight spots in their careers and some ran their own businesses for a while when getting out of that hole. One got out of self employment and is a business developer, having been 2 years self employed and prior to that a senior trader. One friend is doing a PhD having spent years not using the degree. He was an MBA style analyst, having started in HR, and every option he looked at to get out involved doing an MSc or PhD as his experience counted for nothing in maths roles and he eventually took the plunge. One thing he notes about it is that a PhD is really a job, something his first MSc wasn't.

I have to reiterate - do your due diligence properly. Parents or other idiots giving unsolicited advice think the question "what are your classmates doing?" is clever. It isn't. Ask what recent alumni are doing 2-4 years on instead. Especially if you do a PhD and only 1 or 2 classmates from your undergrad are working. I know a PhD physicist that claims at one point the employed contingent class consisted of a dropout MSc that was an accountant (ie not using the degree) and a guy that worked in German porn. I don't think any classmates were rushing to do accountancy exams or practice BDSM with Leaderhousen somehow, but he does say his parents used it as leverage to repeatedly bully him as their take on the matter was "oh, so your degree is useless then?". If you get treated like this, set boundaries. Also don't expect people to wake up when you get work - people still foist abusive and baseless advice on me because they cannot admit they have no clue.

Also, one thing that I noticed with classmates - getting into the first role may not feel easy but it is much easier than getting your first role in a new career. Particularly if your rationale for the career change is that, like me, you got veered away from using maths. The "you can do loads of things" mantra is true for now but there is a limitation on bouncing around careers before firms avoid you.

Certainly proceed with caution but I'd doubt you will avoid being starry eyed at some stage even if you do read up on stuff here. It will happen at some point - happened to me in my first role as the company kissed my ass and I'd never had full time work before. Although when they screwed me over and changed my role to cut costs I snapped out of it pretty quickly.

It happens at different phases with different people. I saw it with people in my MSc when they read salaries on jobs they applied for - even when it was stuff that used financial maths the individual in question was often unsuited - there were no entry requirements for my MSc other than to have gotten 2:1 in a degree where at least 1 module involved maths. So in addition to a class that included a guy that had done a stochastic calculus project on Brownian motion with memory in his undergrad, and another guy that was a derivatives practitioner, some people were graduates of English degrees that could just about differentiate but that thought they'd get "credits" to become an actuary through this MSc (an actuary I know refers to people like this as "exemptions gimps"). I'd doubt any got into anything even finance, never mind risk, related.

Just hope the "starry eyed" phase doesn't interfere with your career - in my case I got over it in my own time, but I've seen people enter into ventures and courses that waste their time and where they throw away good jobs and careers because of starry eyed optimism and find they can't get back to where they were when they realise they made the wrong move. And some had maths degrees - unfortunately moving away from using your degree can look like you were veered away because you weren't good enough, and when that role you want to get back into us mathematical that prejudice is very hard to beat (happened to me with quant finance where I was moved out of it due to the firm I was with changing strategy). These little details tend to get glossed over when economists comment on unemployment rates.