Do I have ANY Hope?

[twalkmove]

Hi,

I go to a top 10 liberal arts college, majoring in economics and GPA is about 3.0 (yeah.. I know it's pretty low).

GRE scores are 170 (v) and 164 (q). I tried to compensate my low gpa with GRE.

For math, I took calc, linear algebra, number theory, abstract algebra and applied statistics.

But the major issue i have is that i have no CS background.

I have internship experiences but not really related to MFE field i think.

The most related one I think is, this summer at a non-US IB FX trading div.


So.. do I have any hopes for MFE programs?

 

[Ken Abbott]

Go work for a few years. MS degrees, IMO, are a waste unless you have the right institutional context.

 

[twalkmove]

Go work for a few years. MS degrees, IMO, are a waste unless you have the right institutional context.

Thank you for your reply, Ken. Could you explain more about the right institutional context you mentioned?

 

[Azamat Bagatov]

What about your math grades? I think they're going to matter more at tier-2 colleges than your overall GPA.

 

[moretodo]

you'd have much more hope if your GRE score was the other way around

 

[Ken Abbott]

Thank you for your reply, Ken. Could you explain more about the right institutional context you mentioned?

Going immediately to grad school is a mistake, I believe. You need to understand where and how these calculations are being put to use. When I went to grad school, which was after working for seven years, I could determine what I needed to understand fully (times series, inference, multivariable stat) and what I only needed to know cursorily (OR, stochastic calculus).

 

[ygmwy]

If you don't know CS, just learn it on your own. There are tons of free online tutorials that will help.

But besides that, no knowledge of CS is not your real problem. It's your gpa, and your gre. (Low compared to your MFE competition). Grad schools look to see if you can handle many tough math classes in rapid succession. They will scrutinize your transcript, and try and put together your story. Another concern is that your math classes are lacking. You really didn't take much. Especially alarming is the lack of probability theory. Given your grades, I doubt you'll pass that test, which is hurdle number one. This is the most important criteria.

That said, I think going to grad school immediately is a mistake for a different reason: I just don't think you should focus your energy when you probably won't get in. There are many people who enter MFE programs who just come from a pure math background with no institutional content (no financial intuition, knowledge of the financial markets, or knowledge of how math and finance combine in a quant role). And they do just fine. Many of my friends fall into this category. However, given your background, if you really want to do MFE, you should find for them more reasons to let you in over other candidates with better gpas and GREs. That will probably include some internships, but the most important thing is your math. Right now, you have absolutely nothing going for you. No gpa, below average gre Q, no practical experience, no CS, and no probability theory! Not that you need them all, but you asked if you had any hope. Your top 10 liberal arts college name, even if it was MIT, is useless.

So no, given what I know about you, I don't think you have any hope as you are now. Try to improve your profile a bit more before wasting application fees.

 

[Yike Lu]

If you have to ask...

 

[GoIllini]

I'm with Ken on this. The more distance (and ideally the more success) you put between the 3.0 GPA and your application, the better. A 3.0 GPA isn't awful, especially from a top ten school, but it's below average for most programs.

If you can land in the middle-office and work your way into the front office (or better yet, land straight in the front office), you will be a strong candidate in 3-4 years. Right now, the 3.0 GPA is going to be a big distraction from your accomplishments for an admissions officer at a top ten program.

 

[IntoDarkness]

Golllini, is front/middle office experience more important than back office?

obviously yes...

 

[GoIllini]

Golllini, is front/middle office experience more important than back office?

Yes and no.

Both jobs are just as important, both are as useful professionally, but MFE programs want to get front-office placements.

If you managed to get into the front-office already, it stands to reason that you can get back in.

I am not calling a front office job a requirement by any means, but it's simply FURTHER validation to a conservative and skeptical adcom that you'll help their placements. Back-office and middle-office experience can also be extremely helpful, but I'd imagine that front-office experience is especially helpful for a top five to top ten program.

 

[Ken Abbott]

...but I'd imagine that front-office experience is especially helpful for a top five to top ten program.

I'm not sure I agree. The interview process is stuffed to the gills with Billy-Big-Deal trader wannabes. I find myself doubting the sincerity of many people who say they want to be in finance. Middle- or back-office experience would suggest a sincere interest in the business and not simply a sincere business in making a quick buck.

 

[GoIllini]

I'm not sure I agree. The interview process is stuffed to the gills with Billy-Big-Deal trader wannabes. I find myself doubting the sincerity of many people who say they want to be in finance. Middle- or back-office experience would suggest a sincere interest in the business and not simply a sincere business in making a quick buck.

You have some points on the value of MO and back office work.

All else being equal, it's better to prove interest in finance than not prove it. All else being equal, it's better to prove that you can get a front office job than not prove it. But I think much of the interest in finance is proven with a $80K tuition check and two years of your life. So the question is, does an MO job help you more on top of the $80K check at proving you're interested in finance, or does the FO job help you more on proving you can land in the FO?

And the cynical voice in my head is saying that schools care more about placements than whether people are actually interested in finance. If a JPL Rocket Scientist decides to go back to SpaceX where he is getting a $700K/year offer to manage launches rather than earn $200K/year in finance, that boosts average first year comp and allows the program to say "Here's what happens to our graduates who DON'T get a job in finance" with a wry grin on its face.

As long as about 2/3 of students make a career of finance, data science, statistics, or something related to an MFE, it's OK for the other 1/3 to go out and prove that MFEs/MFins/ORFE people in general are just as capable and versatile as MBAs.

Stanford GSB had some MBA graduate to earn $530K his first year in Private Equity and a lot of people were talking about that. I know MFEs who have earned on that order their first year, but it would really be quite a shock if one of the ~1000 MFEs who graduates every year winds up earning more than one of the ~6000 top tier MBAs who graduate every year, even if his work is only ancillary to ORFE. It would also prove a point to some of the dumber hiring managers out there and open more MBA-type roles to MFEs.

So if someone could graduate and earn substantially more outside of finance than inside of finance, and it was a STEM-related role that occasionally involved stats or stochastic processes, I think it would help a program- and help the reputation of MFEs in general more than it would hurt.

 

[Ken Abbott]

Stanford GSB had some MBA graduate to earn $530K his first year in Private Equity and a lot of people were talking about that.

This doesn't sound right. PE people get paid primarily on carried interest. I think the only ways this could happen would be if a) the portfolio had some troubled names and the grad had the specific expertise or b) the grad was pulled in to be CEO of one of the portfolio companies. Either way, that person would need to have a lot of experience.

 

[moretodo]

The Stanford Grad had only 3-5 years of pre MBA experience as per Stanford GSB's disclosure if I remember correctly reading and the 530K is apparently a conservative estimate of total compensation. However, one can be rest assured that it was all in PE.

 

[GoIllini]

I know MFE's who've dropped out to earn more than $530. I don't know MFE's who've graduated to earn more.

This doesn't sound right. PE people get paid primarily on carried interest. I think the only ways this could happen would be if a) the portfolio had some troubled names and the grad had the specific expertise or b) the grad was pulled in to be CEO of one of the portfolio companies. Either way, that person would need to have a lot of experience.

http://poetsandquants.com/2013/11/13/highest-paid-stanford-mba-522k/

I know an MFE who dropped out and earned a touch over $522 his first year, but I don't know anyone who got the degree and then earned $522.

Frankly, if someone graduated and got a job at Google paying $700K, great for him, great for the program, and maybe the MBA programs can see if they can keep up that year.