How good is Birbeck Program ?

[chai_risk]

Anyone got direct knowledge of it.

Thank you

 

[Pavlos Sakoglou]

Anyone got direct knowledge of it.

Thank you

As far as I am concerned it's not very reputable in London. Cass is more famous (fame matters for getting interviews). I hear their graduates get jobs within the UK (not in US -- the director told me they don't have partnerships abroad and thus they can't position their students there) but mostly because they are already good, not because of the program they finished. IMO it's a second class program for FE.

I got admitted there (didn't choose to go though), but I remember that the director is nice and he seems to care about the program and the students. I realized that after a conversation I had with him via email, asking for more details before I decide.

I suggest to look up the syllabus and the sections to be taught, and figure out the added value you going to get off it given the cost (tuition and living). Other than that, London is a great location to live in, make connections, and get a job afterwards, but again, I wouldn't count on Birbeck to help me with that.

 

[chai_risk]

That's good insight. I know the classes are held only at evening so maybe an oppourtunity to work & gain som exp ? How tough would it be to gain jobs after the program ?

Also, I have an offer from Edinburg University - MSc Energy Markets. It's more finance slanted but the University has better reputation..
Programme structure - University of Edinburgh Business School
What would you recommend ?

As far as I am concerned it's not very reputable in London. Cass is more famous (fame matters for getting interviews). I hear their graduates get jobs within the UK (not in US -- the director told me they don't have partnerships abroad and thus they can't position their students there) but mostly because they are already good, not because of the program they finished. IMO it's a second class program for FE.

I got admitted there (didn't choose to go though), but I remember that the director is nice and he seems to care about the program and the students. I realized that after a conversation I had with him via email, asking for more details before I decide.

I suggest to look up the syllabus and the sections to be taught, and figure out the added value you going to get off it given the cost (tuition and living). Other than that, London is a great location to live in, make connections, and get a job afterwards, but again, I wouldn't count on Birbeck to help me with that.

 

[Pavlos Sakoglou]

That's good insight. I know the classes are held only at evening so maybe an oppourtunity to work & gain som exp ? How tough would it be to gain jobs after the program ?

Also, I have an offer from Edinburg University - MSc Energy Markets. It's more finance slanted but the University has better reputation..
Programme structure - University of Edinburgh Business School
What would you recommend ?

Getting a job means doing well in the technical part of the interview process, that depends entirely on your quantitative skills. Regardless the program, you need to be able to do well, so the question is what program would prep you best for this and at what cost.

If both programs are similar then prefer the one in London cause it gives you more opportunity for networking, if you can afford it. But again, at the end it comes down to how well you will perform on the interview.

 

[chai_risk]

Do the standard MFE programs prepare you adequately or there's a big self study component too ? How many layers of interviews you have to pass through ? What are the standard materials one need to be well aware to succefully pass the interview ?

Getting a job means doing well in the technical part of the interview process, that depends entirely on your quantitative skills. Regardless the program, you need to be able to do well, so the question is what program would prep you best for this and at what cost.

If both programs are similar then prefer the one in London cause it gives you more opportunity for networking, if you can afford it. But again, at the end it comes down to how well you will perform on the interview.

 

[Pavlos Sakoglou]

Do the standard MFE programs prepare you adequately or there's a big self study component too ? How many layers of interviews you have to pass through ? What are the standard materials one need to be well aware to succefully pass the interview ?

The thing with many MFE programs is that they don't have a good admission process and accept candidates that might not be ready to handle a "higher" level of math. That said, accepted students that don't have a strong math background, end up learning computational procedures with little intuition on how the mechanics of the equations or models work, and thus they have difficulties in the interviews later -- but that also depends on the positions they seek.

In other words, many incoming students are not ready to study FE in a competitive level and thus they have less advantage in the job market afterwards. However if you know the mathematics and you have seen advanced stuff before (i.e. real analysis) you will be able to absorb the knowledge of your masters better, and that might make you a competitive candidate. So again, the program is important, but your background is also very important.

And in general, you don't want to get into an expensive program that about half of your classmates haven't studied serious math before and all programming they know is a bit of MATLAB. Don't get me wrong, MATLAB is useful, but is peanuts compared to a software engineering language.

My best friend just got interviewed for a hedge fund last week in London, for a quant position, and for the technical part he had to take an 1-hour long test, with 20 something brief math questions -- some of them included proofs (one about normal variance he told me), and some of them included intuitive questions (when would you use this model and why, what's the benefits of multithreading in python etc).

That's not the general rule, but the point is you need to know what you are doing very well to get a good job, thus you need to figure out if a FE degree would be the best next step. If you do have a strong math background, then an MFE might help you a lot, otherwise might waste your time and put you in debt and frustration.

 

[chai_risk]

Very informative.

If someone is not from a Math background yet manage to complete the FE degree how diffcult would it to be ace interviews. Are you saying the thresold for passing interviews or being effective in job is much higher than passing the course itself ?

Let's say a business major graduates from FE programs in the above scenario.

The thing with many MFE programs is that they don't have a good admission process and accept candidates that might not be ready to handle a "higher" level of math. That said, accepted students that don't have a strong math background, end up learning computational procedures with little intuition on how the mechanics of the equations or models work, and thus they have difficulties in the interviews later -- but that also depends on the positions they seek.

In other words, many incoming students are not ready to study FE in a competitive level and thus they have less advantage in the job market afterwards. However if you know the mathematics and you have seen advanced stuff before (i.e. real analysis) you will be able to absorb the knowledge of your masters better, and that might make you a competitive candidate. So again, the program is important, but your background is also very important.

And in general, you don't want to get into an expensive program that about half of your classmates haven't studied serious math before and all programming they know is a bit of MATLAB. Don't get me wrong, MATLAB is useful, but is peanuts compared to a software engineering language.

My best friend just got interviewed for a hedge fund last week in London, for a quant position, and for the technical part he had to take an 1-hour long test, with 20 something brief math questions -- some of them included proofs (one about normal variance he told me), and some of them included intuitive questions (when would you use this model and why, what's the benefits of multithreading in python etc).

That's not the general rule, but the point is you need to know what you are doing very well to get a good job, thus you need to figure out if a FE degree would be the best next step. If you do have a strong math background, then an MFE might help you a lot, otherwise might waste your time and put you in debt and frustration.

 

[Pavlos Sakoglou]

Very informative.

If someone is not from a Math background yet manage to complete the FE degree how diffcult would it to be ace interviews. Are you saying the thresold for passing interviews or being effective in job is much higher than passing the course itself ?
Let's say a business major graduates from FE programs in the above scenario.

Completing the masters in a second class program is quite doable if you work hard. You can learn specific stuff (computational procedures as I mentioned above) and pass the exams, then do a dissertation on something less quantitative, and graduate. You can game it and make it to the end. But again, you will be another graduate looking to be a quant. What then? What is your actual skill set that makes you a strong candidate? Your resume will get you job interviews, not a job offer.

As a business graduate myself, the mathematics we learn in our bachelor are basically NOT mathematics. It's simple stuff we need to know to understand basic finance, economics, and finding the profits of a company under certain conditions. Even if your school is better, best case scenario you have seen calculus II level math, which is barely the basis of getting admitted into a second class MFE.

At the end is up to you to make it, but the short answer is no, it's rather unlikely to get a quant job with a year prep in an MFE and not strong math background. IMO, it's easier to spend that year learning how to code like crazy, from your basement, with the minimum cost, and then try to get a developer job, rather than becoming a quant by doing a light year jump in math.

 

[chai_risk]

Thanks for laying out the pros/cons. So Tier 1 FE graduates trade at a premium and make the cut.

What type of roles Tier 2 FE grads can target that's closer to the quant field and realistically have a better employment chances ?

Completing the masters in a second class program is quite doable if you work hard. You can learn specific stuff (computational procedures as I mentioned above) and pass the exams, then do a dissertation on something less quantitative, and graduate. You can game it and make it to the end. But again, you will be another graduate looking to be a quant. What then? What is your actual skill set that makes you a strong candidate? Your resume will get you job interviews, not a job offer.

As a business graduate myself, the mathematics we learn in our bachelor are basically NOT mathematics. It's simple stuff we need to know to understand basic finance, economics, and finding the profits of a company under certain conditions. Even if your school is better, best case scenario you have seen calculus II level math, which is barely the basis of getting admitted into a second class MFE.

At the end is up to you to make it, but the short answer is no, it's rather unlikely to get a quant job with a year prep in an MFE and not strong math background. IMO, it's easier to spend that year learning how to code like crazy, from your basement, with the minimum cost, and then try to get a developer job, rather than becoming a quant by doing a light year jump in math.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

light year jump in math.

How long is a light year these days?

 

[Pavlos Sakoglou]

Thanks for laying out the pros/cons. So Tier 1 FE graduates trade at a premium and make the cut.

What type of roles Tier 2 FE grads can target that's closer to the quant field and realistically have a better employment chances ?

That's a bit general... I don't really know where tier 2 grads can end up. There is no rule actually. It really depends on their skills. Maybe a LinkedIn search will give you some insight ?? But then again, getting a "second class job" really depends on a lot -- connections, luck, basic skill set, being street smart, etc. I am sure you won't have a problem getting a banking job, however, why to do FE if that will be the possible end result?

 

[Pavlos Sakoglou]

light year jump in math.

How long is a light year these days?

I would compare it with teaching advanced software design patterns in a level 2 student of the C++ certificate :P

 

[bigbadwolf]

So Tier 1 FE graduates trade at a premium and make the cut.

Not the way I'd phrase it. Let's say they have real chances. The second and third tier don't (which information their money-hungry second- and third-tier departments coyly withhold from them).

There's an old English adage, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." It is appropriate to dwell on this piece of old wisdom, to meditate on this in silence and solitude. The first tier departments are not trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They are selecting students who already have a number of marketable skills and perhaps adding what can be added within the confines of a year or a year and a half.

The question to ask is: What are those marketable skills and how to acquire them? What program of study, what books, and what testable skills at the end of them? As is the way of this world, those who know don't talk (paying obeisance to another old adage that "knowledge shared is power lost") and those who talk typically don't know. Nothing free in this world.

 

[chai_risk]

Can you elaborate on this general wisdom. In tangible terms what are those marketable skills & how do one acquire them ? For a newbie it is hard to know those and the programs seem the only pathway even if it is second tier!

They are selecting students who already have a number of marketable skills and perhaps adding what can be added within the confines of a year or a year and a half.

The question to ask is: What are those marketable skills and how to acquire them? What program of study, what books, and what testable skills at the end of them?

Not the way I'd phrase it. Let's say they have real chances. The second and third tier don't (which information their money-hungry second- and third-tier departments coyly withhold from them).

There's an old English adage, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." It is appropriate to dwell on this piece of old wisdom, to meditate on this in silence and solitude. The first tier departments are not trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They are selecting students who already have a number of marketable skills and perhaps adding what can be added within the confines of a year or a year and a half.

The question to ask is: What are those marketable skills and how to acquire them? What program of study, what books, and what testable skills at the end of them? As is the way of this world, those who know don't talk (paying obeisance to another old adage that "knowledge shared is power lost") and those who talk typically don't know. Nothing free in this world.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Can you elaborate on this general wisdom. In tangible terms what are those marketable skills & how do one acquire them?

That is for you to determine. As Krishnamurthi said in his 1929 address, "Truth is a pathless land." The advice you get here will be generic -- Learn coding! Learn math! Learn finance! What exactly this means, few will elaborate. You can find out for yourself by looking at books, by constructing "mental maps" of different disciplines. And in the long term, this will be more useful than any spoon-fed advice proffered here. Start with coding (say). What are coding skills? Obviously such skills go beyond merely knowing the syntax of a language. For starters, look at the books that prepare you for coding interviews -- there are at least three or four on the market (Aziz, Prakash, and Lee is one, Laakmann and McDowell another). Get hold of a basic book on algorithms (either generic or in a language such as C++ or Python). Work your way through it. If generic, try to translate the pseudocode into working programs in the language of your choice.

For a newbie it is hard to know those and the programs seem the only pathway even if it is second tier!

Those second-tier programs are banking on your ignorance and naivete.