COMPARE How to Choose between Columbia MAFN, Umich MFE and Columbia MSOR

[micky]

Dear all, get me some suggestions.
In my opinion, Columbia has a bigger brand than Umich. However, the MAFN program of Columbia must be completed in 2 semesters and can't be extended. And hence, it is more intensive than that in Umich and if I choose Columbia, it means I have no time to do the summer intern . Could you give me some suggestions between the three programs? Thanks!

 

[Paul Mithouard]

I heardColumbia MAFN can be extended ... Did you check for it?

 

[kmisha]

http://www.math.columbia.edu/department/mafn/page5.html

"Full-time students complete the program in two semesters. Part-time students must complete the program within four years (eight semesters)."

 

[micky]

I heardColumbia MAFN can be extended ... Did you check for it?

Yeah, the director told me that for full time students it is a 1 year program and can not be extended beyond 1 year.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

There is no real clear cut winner here, I'm afraid.
Columbia MSOR is something I would suggest for people who are genuinely interested in the OR subject and the career paths associated with it. Unfortunately, this program has developed into a step sibling of the Columbia MFE over the years where it attracts many people who couldn't get into the MFE program.
Columbia MAFN is another poorly reviewed program. Granted I couldn't find many graduates of this program though I tried hard. And the few I met did not speak highly of the program. Their main complain is that the program is not career oriented, nor well organized and it attracts a huge amount of foreign students who are more excited about living in NYC than their career prospect. The class size is big which just amplifies their problems.
The program is not publishing any relevant information on how they grads are finding job. I tried to ask them but they did not give me any info.
That should give you a fair warning sign.
U Michigan MFE is an established program but has faded into after thought lately. Many applicants settle for it if they can't get into the top programs in NYC. A traditional engineering powerhouse but the MFE program does not benefit from companies that go there to recruit MBA and Engineering grads. Disadvantages of being in Michigan is a well-known fact.

If you think you can do better, reapply next year. There is no reason to settle for second tiered program.

 

[Joy Pathak]

U Michigan MFE is an established program but has faded into after thought lately. Many applicants settle for it if they can't get into the top programs in NYC. A traditional engineering powerhouse but the MFE program does not benefit from companies that go there to recruit MBA and Engineering grads. Disadvantages of being in Michigan is a well-known fact.

If you think you can do better, reapply next year. There is no reason to settle for second tiered program.

The bank I am going to intern at just hired a student full-time who graduated from Michigan MFE. I also met a Michigan MFE during superday at another bank.

I think Michigan MFE is a good place to go if you're okay with analyst level positions. They are not a target associate level school, but then again there are very few of those. There are many firms that goto Michigan for analyst positions. They also get a lot of prop firms from Chicago that come in to recruit quants at Michigan.

 

[yjt]

@Joy Pathak,

Would you say Baruch is a target associate level school then? (sorry about being off-topic here...I am just really curious)

 

[Joy Pathak]

@Joy Pathak,

Would you say Baruch is a target associate level school then? (sorry about being off-topic here...I am just really curious)

The MFE program does get a few associate level quant positions. JP Morgan Quant Research group and Morgan Stanley Strats and Modelling were both associate level quant programs and they interviewed students from the Baruch MFE program.

There are some other students who did get associate level internships not in those groups, but that is primarily because they already had a master's degree before.

 

[CharlesT]

There is no real clear cut winner here, I'm afraid.

U Michigan MFE is an established program but has faded into after thought lately. Many applicants settle for it if they can't get into the top programs in NYC. A traditional engineering powerhouse but the MFE program does not benefit from companies that go there to recruit MBA and Engineering grads. Disadvantages of being in Michigan is a well-known fact.

It is not true. UMich MFE has access to both College of Engineering and Ross School of Business's recruiting systems. Many FE jobs are posted there. Both its College of Engineering and Ross School of Business are highly ranked in the country.

 

[bullion]

Having access doesn't mean they are particularly benefiting from such arrangement. A strong business / engineering program can very well overshadow an interdisciplinary program like the MFE given the significant overlap. CMU, UCB, and Baruch mainly derive their success from EXCLUSIVE placement that thrived even at bad times when both engineering and business schools are suffering.

 

[CharlesT]

Having access doesn't mean they are particularly benefiting from such arrangement. A strong business / engineering program can very well overshadow an interdisciplinary program like the MFE given the significant overlap. CMU, UCB, and Baruch mainly derive their success from EXCLUSIVE placement that thrived even at bad times when both engineering and business schools are suffering.

CMU also suffered:
88% of the class of 2010 (graduating Dec. '09) were employed
within three months of graduation.
83% of the class of 2009 (graduating Dec. '08) were employed
within three months of graduation.

 

[bullion]

Haha ok. I can't argue with that since Columbia doesn't release their employment data. But at least from the impression I've gotten in this forum, things were a lot worse there. What was UMich's number during that period?

 

[CharlesT]

Haha ok. I can't argue with that since Columbia doesn't release their employment data. But at least from the impression I've gotten in this forum, things were a lot worse there. What was UMich's number during that period?

I don't believe you any longer. You have been not providing the true information for several times.

Columbia MSFE actually released its employment data. It was better than CMU (even we use 60/64).

The full-time placement statistics for students who started in July 2007 (completed the Program in 2008) are listed below.

Total number of graduating students: 64
(4 students did not respond to the survey)

Students with employment*: 60

Percentage of students placed*: 100%

 

[bullion]

I think the title asked about MAFN and MSOR. Your argument also started with Andy's evaluations for the MAFN and MSOR programs. I derived some of my assertions from catchuec 's post
https://www.quantnet.com/forum/thre...ect-redirected-to-msor.8858/page-3#post-84709

You definitely should not blindly believe everything I say. Also you should look more closely the positions students have obtained and speak to their students about how happy they are with their new job. Most of my contacts seem to loooooooove CMU, so I can only base my judgment on that.

Sorry if I've lost all your faith and trust (and worship and gold offering...) I question many things said in this forum, and I encourage you to do the same

 

[CharlesT]

I think the title asked about MAFN and MSOR. I derived some of my assertions from catchuec 's post
https://www.quantnet.com/forum/thre...ect-redirected-to-msor.8858/page-3#post-84709

You definitely should not blindly believe everything I say. Also you should look more closely the positions students have obtained and speak to their students about how happy they are with their new job. Most of my contacts seem to loooooooove CMU, so I can only base my judgment on that.

Sorry if I've lost all your faith and trust (and worship and gold offering...) I question many things said in this forum, and I encourage you to do the same

Sorry. When you mentioned Columbia, MSFE just first came to my mind. I agree with your way to get your judgement.

 

[CharlesT]

Having access doesn't mean they are particularly benefiting from such arrangement. A strong business / engineering program can very well overshadow an interdisciplinary program like the MFE given the significant overlap. CMU, UCB, and Baruch mainly derive their success from EXCLUSIVE placement that thrived even at bad times when both engineering and business schools are suffering.

Just checked. UCB's placement in 2008 was 100%, compared to CMU's data mentioned above. Columbia MSFE also had a better placement rate than CMU at that time.

I think the "EXCLUSIVE placement" may not be that important. The most important factor affecting placement rate is the quality of students entering the program. UCB performs better in general mainly because there are more experienced students there. CMU also has a large group of students who have full time work experience.

So I think it is really doesn't make any sense to compare these programs with some other MFE programs where the majority of students are fresh graduates without enough experience.

Whether one can find a job is mostly determined by whether his/her own background fits this industry or not. It has much less to do which program he/she enters. A 1 or 1.5 years program really cannot change too much about his/her nature.

Once they enter a program, they tend to speak highly of it to attract more elite to enter, so that they can form a more powerful group. They bet this program can become stronger and stronger and they hope the program they studied can be the top. That's natural for human being.

That's probably one of the reasons why Andy is opening this website. This can be a very good platform to distribute advertisement for the Baruch Program. If he successfully attracts students with better quality to enter, the Baruch can be better. I'm just purely guessing.

Sorry I'm a little off the topic. Just hope that the information I provide is helpful.

 

[mfegrad]

CharlesT

did cmu reject you or something? why the blatant attempt at a hatchet job all over the place? at least announce your affiliation (if any).

if you're going to post numbers without deleting the freaking asterisk, include the freaking footnote. i'll do it for you.

*of respondents​

unlike columbia's financial engineering program (the main one, if that helps distinguish amongst them), cmu's mscf program reports numbers as required by business school guidelines. there's a lot less room to fudge. go here and learn:
http://www.tepper.cmu.edu/master-in-computational-finance/your-career/recruiting-partners/index.aspx
is it perfect? of course not. but the information presented there is more comprehensive and thorough than just about every other program out there.

and yes, there will be some kids that aren't placed every year, but, if and when you attend one of these programs (if you haven't already), you'll realize that a lot of that is on the kids, not the school. oh, and by the way, the economy has been lukewarm and the industry's been shedding jobs.

so put the hatchet down. breathe a bit. and relax. your school, whichever it might be, is probably fine. you don't have to pump yourself up by putting others down.

 

[CharlesT]

CharlesT

did cmu reject you or something? why the blatant attempt at a hatchet job all over the place? at least announce your affiliation (if any).

if you're going to post numbers without deleting the freaking asterisk, include the freaking footnote. i'll do it for you.

*of respondents​

unlike columbia's financial engineering program (the main one, if that helps distinguish amongst them), cmu's mscf program reports numbers as required by business school guidelines. there's a lot less room to fudge. go here and learn:
http://www.tepper.cmu.edu/master-in-computational-finance/your-career/recruiting-partners/index.aspx
is it perfect? of course not. but the information presented there is more comprehensive and thorough than just about every other program out there.

and yes, there will be some kids that aren't placed every year, but, if and when you attend one of these programs (if you haven't already), you'll realize that a lot of that is on the kids, not the school. oh, and by the way, the economy has been lukewarm and the industry's been shedding jobs.

so put the hatchet down. breathe a bit. and relax. your school, whichever it might be, is probably fine. you don't have to pump yourself up by putting others down.

For the *of respondents, I already said "It was better than CMU (even we use 60/64)."
I think you probably need to breathe a bit, haha.

Please read the rest of my posting again. The main point is not this at all.

I probably need to repeat it again:

Whether one can find a job is mostly determined by whether his/her own background fits this industry or not. It has much less to do which program he/she enters. A 1 or 1.5 years program really cannot change too much about his/her nature.

I think the "EXCLUSIVE placement" may not be that important. The most important factor affecting placement rate is the quality of students entering the program. UCB performs better in general mainly because there are more experienced students there. CMU also has a large group of students who have full time work experience.

So I think it is really doesn't make any sense to compare these programs with some other MFE programs where the majority of students are fresh graduates without enough experience.

 

[mfegrad]

For the *of respondents, I already said "It was better than CMU (even we use 60/64)."
I think you probably need to breathe a bit, haha.

again, you're missing the point.

that's 60 out of 64 people who responded. you have no idea (nor do i) how many people *didn't* respond. if that number is 0, then great, 60/64 is great. if that number is 56, all of a sudden you're potentially looking at something as low as 60/120 as, let's be honest, those who haven't found something are far less likely to respond than those who have.

i'm totally fine on the breathing end; i've graduated, i'm gainfully employed, and my posts make sense. no reason to worry here.

and if you'd read what i'd written, you'd see that i agree that a lot is on the students so there was no need to rephrase what you'd written. however, cmu has a lot of kids straight from undergrad, as well (they claim a third).

 

[CharlesT]

again, you're missing the point.

that's 60 out of 64 people who responded. you have no idea (nor do i) how many people *didn't* respond. if that number is 0, then great, 60/64 is great. if that number is 56, all of a sudden you're potentially looking at something as low as 60/120 as, let's be honest, those who haven't found something are far less likely to respond than those who have.

i'm totally fine on the breathing end; i've graduated, i'm gainfully employed, and my posts make sense. no reason to worry here.

and if you'd read what i'd written, you'd see that i agree that a lot is on the students so there was no need to rephrase what you'd written. however, cmu has a lot of kids straight from undergrad, as well (they claim a third).

Did you read my post carefully?

I have to post it here again....

Total number of graduating students: 64
(4 students did not respond to the survey)

Students with employment*: 60

Percentage of students placed*: 100%
*of respondents

I said "It was better than CMU (even we use 60/64)."

I met several of the one third you mentioned. They are very smart. That's partly why I say "Whether one can find a job is mostly determined by whether his/her own background fits this industry or not. It has much less to do which program he/she enters. A 1 or 1.5 years program really cannot change too much about his/her nature."