COMPARE Master Programs Comparison: Which quant program to choose?

[ugrad]

Hi all,

I have been fortunate to receive admission to both UC Berkeley and UCLA for undergraduate study, and have been waitlisted at Stanford. Given the reputation of Berkeley, I am leaning towards attending Berkeley over UCLA, but each school comes with its pros and cons, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

Academic Background: I'm a California resident, so UCLA and UCB are both similarly priced. I've completed the AP Calc and AP Stats sequence with 5's (suitable to waive Calc1/2 and elementary statistics at either school), as well as multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations at a local community college (which is transferrable to either school). Thus, I've essentially completed all the lower division math major requirements at both campuses. In terms of Upper Division coursework, I've completed Real Analysis (1 of 3), Optimization, and Probability (1 of 2) at another UC Campus, and will have completed the latter courses in Probability and Real Analysis by the time I begin at either UCLA or UCB in the Fall. Finally, I will also be completing a graduate course at my local UC in Mathematics of Data Science this Quarter. I've earned straight A/A+ grades in all of these classes, and have confirmed that UCLA and UCB will both accept all my prior coursework as transfer credit.

I've been admitted to the Pre-Mathematics Major at UCLA and the College of Letters & Sciences for UC Berkeley, and given my accelerated timeline, I would like to complete majors in mathematics and statistics, as well as a minor in computer science, as well as a healthy dose of graduate coursework in mathematics and statistics.

UCLA
Pros: Accelerated mathematics masters program (BS + MA in 4 years), Great campus and social life, Lesser (though still prevalent) grade deflation vs UC Berkeley
Cons: Weaker programs/reputation, poor location (versus Berkeley which is closer to SF)

Berkeley:
Pros: Better academic reputation, location
Cons: Major grade deflation, impacted enrollment for classes, poorer campus/social scene, no BS/MA program

Of course, if I do get off the Stanford waitlist, I understand that attending Stanford would be preferable to both UCB and UCLA (in terms of reputation and the alleviated worry of grade deflation). However, attending Stanford is more than twice as expensive as attending UCLA/Berkeley, so I'm wondering whether the quality of education and positioning for PhD/Grad School acceptance/Industry placement justifies the cost of attendance? How are UCLA, UC Berkeley, and Stanford perceived relative to each other in Quant circles? I would appreciate any insight!

 

[confusedperson]

I am going with UChicago. Much lower tuition and cost of living, and I like their curriculum more (CBS finance core requirements seem too repetitive). As for job hunting, I was also doubtful about Columbia’s placements (practically zero in prop shops I am interested in, looks like the slim share of people who do end up in quant go to sell-side banks)

 

[Lukee]

I am going with UChicago. Much lower tuition and cost of living, and I like their curriculum more (CBS finance core requirements seem too repetitive). As for job hunting, I was also doubtful about Columbia’s placements (practically zero in prop shops I am interested in, looks like the slim share of people who do end up in quant go to sell-side banks)

I discovered something that might be of interest to you. If you go to Chicago's website you can see current graduate students, then use the internet archive's wayback machine to view students from the past couple of years. You can then go on LinkedIn and see where these people are working now. Since they don't publish employment reports (afaik) this is the best way to compare placements from this program with other schools.

People | Department of Statistics | The University of Chicago

 

[alskdjfdlskfj]

I discovered something that might be of interest to you. If you go to Chicago's website you can see current graduate students, then use the internet archive's wayback machine to view students from the past couple of years. You can then go on LinkedIn and see where these people are working now. Since they don't publish employment reports (afaik) this is the best way to compare placements from this program with other schools.

People | Department of Statistics | The University of Chicago

Thanks, I’ve seen a list of past graduates on UChicago’s website but I don’t think it was as complete as this.

 

[MikeLawrence]

I've been looking and I think Stanfords program gets less of a rep than it deserves. It won't end up on QN's ranking because it's an ICME program and not purely quant focused, but they're really good at what they do and require a mathematical maturity not seen in any other MFE in the US. It is more comparable to the very math heavy El-Karoi over in France. They've got my vote though.

Edit: my reasoning for why it isn't currently ranked is wrong. They just don't care about providing data.

 

[yannten]

It is more comparable to the very math heavy El-Karoi over in France

I am French and have been accepted to the Master 1 at Institut Polytechnique leading to the Master 2 El Karoui. I am struggling to make a choice between there and other programs in the US. While I am not sure that I want to do all my career in the USA, I would like to get some experience. Since you are the first one on this forum that I see mentioning this program, would you have any idea of how well it would be recognized in the US and especially from the buy-side perspective (since it is more math heavy than most of the US Programs) ?

Also, how come no one really talks about it knowing that it was ranked number 4 by risk.net last year (after Princeton, Baruch, and Berkeley) ?

 

[MikeLawrence]

I am French and have been accepted to the Master 1 at Institut Polytechnique leading to the Master 2 El Karoui. I am struggling to make a choice between there and other programs in the US. While I am not sure that I want to do all my career in the USA, I would like to get some experience. Since you are the first one on this forum that I see mentioning this program, would you have any idea of how well it would be recognized in the US and especially from the buy-side perspective (since it is more math heavy than most of the US Programs) ?

Also, how come no one really talks about it knowing that it was ranked number 4 by risk.net last year (after Princeton, Baruch, and Berkeley) ?

I have seen quants I respect say grads from the program are probably the best well-rounded quants mathematical quants in the world - except they are a little deficient in machine learning compared to their other areas. I'm not sure what the perception in the US is though. The rule of thumb is that if you want to work in the US you should just go to a US program.

You're on QN right now, we all pay more attention to the QN rankings. People here mention it, but it doesn't get the attention on this forum of other top programs. I agree that it should. However, it requires more mathematical depth than most QN people can pretend to have, so we won't get as much random Econ or finance people who get calc III and a first linear algebra course and want opinions on their chances. The website is clear about real analysis, numerics, and other prerequisites.

 

[MikeLawrence]

Actually, this thread has been somewhat active this year - still not many of QN have historically looked at it. @Andy Nguyen has a comment on the first page of the thread reiterating that we know little about it.

Anything from Stanford MCF ?

I don’t really understand why they wait so late. It’s a shame because it’s a phenomenal program, but it’s hard for students to pass up on every other offer in hopes of an admission, especially as selective as they are. You really would have to bet on getting in or else you don’t have many...

quantnet.com

edit: this is becoming just a collection of mcf threads. There appears to have actually been a decent minority of users here who shot for Stanford over the years. more common on QN than I thought. Still definitely a minority though. Way too many people looking at Columbia's MFE in comparison.

COMPARE - Stanford MCF vs Princeton MFin

Hello everyone, I have been lucky enough to be admitted both to the Stanford MCF at ICME and Princeton MFin, but am stuck deciding between the two. In particular, I am curious if anyone knows anything about career prospects from the Stanford MCF. Their website is quite lacking in this regard...

quantnet.com

 

[saugat]

Hey, I have a similar situation. I have a $16k scholarship on Stevens and pay full on Rutgers. I am also waiting for Fordham. I am more inclined towards Stevens because of the affordability factor. What did you decide on?

 

[potatopeeler]

Hey, I have a similar situation. I have a $16k scholarship on Stevens and pay full on Rutgers. I am also waiting for Fordham. I am more inclined towards Stevens because of the affordability factor. What did you decide on?

While the question is targeted towards OP, I was in a similar situation as well. I chose Stevens over Rutgers, not just because of the tuition but because I also like the overall curriculum at Stevens more. Additionally, 45 credits in 3 semesters is not very wise. And lastly, in terms of career prospects, I found both to be on par.

 

[Lukee]

However, it requires more mathematical depth than most QN people can pretend to have, so we won't get as much random Econ or finance people who get calc III and a first linear algebra course and want opinions on their chances. The website is clear about real analysis, numerics, and other prerequisites.

Would you mind sharing where you saw this? I looked on their website but couldn’t find it

 

[MikeLawrence]

Academics

mcf.stanford.edu

 

[Lukee]

View attachment 52201

Academics

mcf.stanford.edu

Ahh ok gotcha, I thought you were referring to El Karoui

 

[MikeLawrence]

El Karoui is much more strict. This is the sheet their website's got telling students the math they need to be very comfortable with before they should consider applying to the M1 program which is a pre-requisite for the M2 (one of the five options of which is El Karoui).

 

[bootstrap]

I have seen quants I respect say grads from the program are probably the best well-rounded quants mathematical quants in the world - except they are a little deficient in machine learning compared to their other areas. I'm not sure what the perception in the US is though. The rule of thumb is that if you want to work in the US you should just go to a US program.

You're on QN right now, we all pay more attention to the QN rankings. People here mention it, but it doesn't get the attention on this forum of other top programs. I agree that it should. However, it requires more mathematical depth than most QN people can pretend to have, so we won't get as much random Econ or finance people who get calc III and a first linear algebra course and want opinions on their chances. The website is clear about real analysis, numerics, and other prerequisites.

Hi Mike, thanks for sharing! But I have got a question for a seasoned professional such as yourself...does knowing real analysis really help with the day-to-day work as a quant? I mean...mathematical rigor is good, but there's got to be a point where return starts diminishing.

Isn't a good program one that strikes a perfect balance between the math and the practical applications (mostly computing and programing)? I didn't apply to CMU because I missed its deadline (not that I would've gotten in this year anyway), but I feel that CMU is one of the few programs that does a good job striking that balance.

 

[MikeLawrence]

Hi Mike, thanks for sharing! But I have got a question for a seasoned professional such as yourself...does knowing real analysis really help with the day-to-day work as a quant? I mean...mathematical rigor is good, but there's got to be a point where return starts diminishing.

Isn't a good program one that strikes a perfect balance between the math and the practical applications (mostly computing and programing)? I didn't apply to CMU because I missed its deadline (not that I would've gotten in this year anyway), but I feel that CMU is one of the few programs that does a good job striking that balance.

I am in no way a seasoned professional. I have held a single private wealth management internship and it was in no way quantitative.

The El-Karoui quants (most of the good one's anyway) typically come from the undergrad ecole program and also have two semesters of functional analysis and a bunch of other stuff. Their mathematical ability is just leagues beyond where almost all US students are at. They don't actually use it on the job, but they do pick up models and ideas faster because of it.

Edit: your account is even 15 months older than mine. I'm barely a year old here.

 

[bootstrap]

I am in no way a seasoned professional. I have held a single private wealth management internship and it was in no way quantitative.

The El-Karoui quants (most of the good one's anyway) typically come from the undergrad ecole program and also have two semesters of functional analysis and a bunch of other stuff. Their mathematical ability is just leagues beyond where almost all US students are at. They don't actually use it on the job, but they do pick up models and ideas faster because of it.

Edit: your account is even 15 months older than mine. I'm barely a year old here.

Thanks! I see where you are coming from. Perhaps studying those hardcore subjects is good training for the mind?

I hope you are right about that, then at least I have the comfort of knowing that grinding through Folland all those years ago wasn't a total waste of time. But I do want to mention one observation I made during my school years - people who were REALLY good at math for some reason had a high tendency of being technophobic. In short, they didn't like programming. Then again, it was some 15 years ago, perhaps things are different now.

Lol I have only regularly visited this forum since last October.

 

[yannten]

El Karoui is much more strict. This is the sheet their website's got telling students the math they need to be very comfortable with before they should consider applying to the M1 program which is a pre-requisite for the M2 (one of the five options of which is El Karoui).

To add on to this, the M1 Applied Mathematics and Statistics that you are referring to is not necessarily a pre-requisite for the M2 Probability and Finance (El Karoui), any student that possesses the equivalency of an M1 in mathematics (from a French institution or elsewhere) can apply. That being said, from what I understood through discussions with the responsible of the program and alumni, this specific M1 seems to make the passage into the M2 El Karoui easier compared to students from other programs, even though one still needs to accomplish "great academic results" during the M1 to get admitted into the M2 El Karoui (which seems to be the most competitive out of the 4 M2 options).

Another important element to note is that the courses for the M1 are all taught in English while the large majority of (if not all) courses for the M2 El Karoui are taught in French (making the French language a pre-requisite for admission)

 

[MikeLawrence]

To add on to this, the M1 Applied Mathematics and Statistics that you are referring to is not necessarily a pre-requisite for the M2 Probability and Finance (El Karoui), any student that possesses the equivalency of an M1 in mathematics (from a French institution or elsewhere) can apply. That being said, from what I understood through discussions with the responsible of the program and alumni, this specific M1 seems to make the passage into the M2 El Karoui easier compared to students from other programs, even though one still needs to accomplish "great academic results" during the M1 to get admitted into the M2 El Karoui (which seems to be the most competitive out of the 4 M2 options).

Another important element to note is that the courses for the M1 are all taught in English while the large majority of (if not all) courses for the M2 El Karoui are taught in French (making the French language a pre-requisite for admission)

Yeah, this is all true. From what I've read, most of El Karoui's cohort comes from the M1 and I chose not to make the distinction as the prerequisites are the same. Have you gathered the same?

 

[yannten]

Yeah, this is all true. From what I've read, most of El Karoui's cohort comes from the M1 and I chose not to make the distinction as the prerequisites are the same. Have you gathered the same?

Surprisingly, I would argue the opposite. From the LinkedIn research that I have done using their database of alumni (I searched probably about 50+), I realized that most of the students actually did not come from this M1. I have not done any concrete statistics so don't quote me on that, but from what I remember, a majority seemed to come from other master programs in Paris