MATH PhD versus MFE

[higherPlaneBeing]

Hey, this is my first post.

If I go to a good doctoral program and do my dissertation in financial mathematics, how much better is this career and salary wise than an MFE?

I'm an applied math undergrad graduate with 2 years left. I want to be a quant analyst and I really love math. I love it more than the financial applications. I however, would love to earn a fat salary and finance and economics do interest me. I also will be learning how to program regardless of what choice I take.

I'll be 26 when I graduate with my BS, which means I'll be 31-32 when finish get my PhD versus 28 for an MFE. But I know with math phd I have more doors open to me.

BTW, I'm applied math but I will have taken all the pure math requirements for a BS as well (and a minor's worth in chemistry).

 

[wadswort]

Most people who have done a PhD. and then get into financial engineering say that a majority of the PhD. was a waste of time.

I would try to get a quant analytics job somewhere->MFE->quant reasearhc

 

[Andy Nguyen]

If I go to a good doctoral program and do my dissertation in financial mathematics, how much better is this career and salary wise than an MFE?

You can't just count on the assumption that you will attend any Math PhD program and find an adviser and a dissertation in financial mathematics. Even if you can find one now, it's not certain he will still be around in a few years.
This goes back to the point that has been beaten to pulp on Quantnet: don't do a PhD as a way to get into the finance industry. There are much shorter way to get an entry level finance job, MFE is just one of them.
I'm not sure about your idea that "math phd have more doors open to me". The number of un/underemployed Math PhDs out there can be witness to this. I would say having practical skills will open more doors to you, programming is one of the most marketable skills you can have.

 

[higherPlaneBeing]

Thank you for the responses.

My question is then, will a math Ph.D. be hired at a non-entry-level position or will he be hired along with the rest?

Should I get an entry level position first, and then decide what graduate degree to pursue?

And by open doors, I mean I can work in other fields as well. My major interest are mathematics, finance, and linguistics. A math Ph.D. is a very useful (albeit unusual) thing to have for serious research in language and syntax. However, because that doesn't pay well, I'd rather work in finance. The math doctorate will simply make me competent in the three fields, whereas the MFE would only be for one field.

 

[Yike Lu]

You have enough time left in undergrad to learn about QF, get an internship, etc... BEFORE making the step of committing to an MFE. I recommend you follow this path. It may turn out MFE is totally unnecessary for you, it may turn out that you end up hating working in finance. Any number of things can happen, so it's better to try before buying.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

My question is then, will a math Ph.D. be hired at a non-entry-level position or will he be hired along with the rest?

Should I get an entry level position first, and then decide what graduate degree to pursue?

Yike is right. Try to get a sense of daily routine in this field before you commit years and ton of money trying to get into something you may regret. Sort of like going to medical school to find out that you hate working with old and sick people.
Your Math PhD won't give you anything extra. It may pass some HR filter or meet some job education requirement but that's as far as it goes. What would be of use if your PhD can't get you an interview? There are many Math PhD who couldn't find a postdoc, temp job, let alone tenured jobs. I know many of them. I was a Math PhD student before.

 

[higherPlaneBeing]

Good stuff to keep in mind.

One last thing, I have no problem working overseas for a company. I can speak and write Spanish natively and I have some knowledge of Japanese and a tiny bit of Russian and Korean. For the sake of future employment prospects, of the three which is my best bet?

 

[higherPlaneBeing]

You have enough time left in undergrad to learn about QF, get an internship, etc... BEFORE making the step of committing to an MFE. I recommend you follow this path.

Can I get a quant internship while still an undergraduate? After graduation? Or do I need to be a grad student for this? Should I be looking at normal financial analysts internship instead?

When I graduate I will have taken a courses in real & complex analysis, and a grad-level one in PDEs and/or stochastic calculus (hopefully both). My programming skills will not be up to par though.

Do quants ever take the CFA exams? Is this useful to have before applying to quant jobs?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

I would recommend checking out this reading list. If you finish all the free guides (PDF), and still hungry to be in this field, you will be more focused and know what the next steps are.
http://www.quantnet.com/forum/threa...uants-mfe-financial-engineering-students.535/

 

[higherPlaneBeing]

This list is fantastic. Thank you so much.

 

[Yike Lu]

Can I get a quant internship while still an undergraduate? After graduation? Or do I need to be a grad student for this? Should I be looking at normal financial analysts internship instead?

Yeah you can, typically it is before graduation, in the summers after your sophomore or junior years. After graduation, I think it tends towards full time or nothing, although you can certainly try to get an internship. From my experience, big banks will hire the largest number of students, so it likely will be a biased view of quant life.

When I graduate I will have taken a courses in real & complex analysis, and a grad-level one in PDEs and/or stochastic calculus (hopefully both). My programming skills will not be up to par though.

Unless your end goal is to be a pure mathematician, you would be well served learning more programming. Most of the quantitative work, whether in finance or science, is done with computers these days. The sheer volume of data makes it difficult to do otherwise.

The basic ideas aren't difficult, it's the combination of ideas and how the tools you have interact with your own human limitations. The best way to get this experience is to try to write programs to automate repetitive tasks rather than doing them yourself. Join some type of applied math/computational math research group. Once you have the basics down, doing real work in programming teaches you much more than doing cooked up exercises.

Do quants ever take the CFA exams? Is this useful to have before applying to quant jobs?

I've taken the first level. It is extremely useful for you to learn how to talk the talk of finance and to gain intuition. It is not useful as a learning mechanism about strictly quant concepts. If you find yourself confused about terminology, accounting, the layout of the markets, the purpose of the markets, or career choices, CFA will help you.

 

[Lyosha]

I was considering MFE vs. Ph. D. a while ago. I went to MFE because it is much shorter, and I didn't want to still be in college when I was 30 for personal life considerations (and the small price tag of my particular MFE was also a large consideration). For me, the PhD could wait.

I think I made the correct decision. There are reasons to get a Ph. D. However, I don't think you really care that much about math or finance, or how long you stay in college so long as you make a ton of money (I would urge you to reconsider your views on the world), so for you it's just an economic argument. An MFE takes 1.5 years and costs money, a Ph. D. takes 6 and doesn't. in those 4.5 years that you're starving in college, if you are good, you'd earn 500-600k more after the MFE.

 

[Nguyen]

I, personally, think that it depends on your interest. It you want to do research then go for a PhD. But remember that it might take you up to 5-7 years to finish, also there is no guarantee that you will get your degree after such long time. In my institution, some students chose maths but dropped out after getting their master degrees.

Your Math PhD won't give you anything extra. It may pass some HR filter or meet some job education requirement but that's as far as it goes. What would be of use if your PhD can't get you an interview? There are many Math PhD who couldn't find a postdoc, temp job, let alone tenured jobs. I know many of them. I was a Math PhD student before.

Hi Andy, this scares me !

 

[higherPlaneBeing]

I've taken the first level. It is extremely useful for you to learn how to talk the talk of finance and to gain intuition. It is not useful as a learning mechanism about strictly quant concepts. If you find yourself confused about terminology, accounting, the layout of the markets, the purpose of the markets, or career choices, CFA will help you.

Did you pay for the CFA exams or did your job sponsor you? Would it we wasteful (they are rather expensive) to take if before I graduate?

 

[Yike Lu]

Did you pay for the CFA exams or did your job sponsor you? Would it we wasteful (they are rather expensive) to take if before I graduate?

I paid for them. It might be wasteful in that you can find other resources to get the same broad level overview that the CFA Level 1 gives you. But this is highly dependent on your school, your personal network, etc. If you can find somebody who works in the industry and who will sit down and give you a broad picture and some guidance, it might not be necessary to take them.