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MSF vs MFE

Joined
12/25/13
Messages
92
Points
18
I am debating with myself whether I should do MSF or MFE. I would love to pick experts brains to clarify myself before make any progress:
I am an aerospace engineer, but I am interested in finance and love to work for a Hedge Fund. I am not quite sure what type of Hedge fund that I am interested in at this point.

It would be highly appreciated, if any of you could shed some light on this.

I understand Baruch has one of the Best MFE program in US. I am just wondering how it would be like if any of the Baruch grads wanted to do M&A or Corporate Finance or Consulting and etc.

What if you are not sure what you want to do upon graduation?

PS: I have the quant career guide, published by quantnet, but It hasn't rung the bell.
 
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I understand Baruch has one of the Best MFE program in US. I am just wondering how it would be like if any of the Baruch grads wanted to do M&A or Corporate Finance or Consulting and etc.
 
If a Baruch grad wanted to do M&A or Corporate Finance or Consulting, he or she is pretty much doomed in my personal opinion. He or she may have a chance to pursue such roles in his or her home country if she or he had a good degree with stellar grades from a well recognized university of that country. Other than that, most of the careers Baruch grads who enroll full time with no relevant previous work experience are in Risk. One or two get offers in Quantitative Research and perhaps strats and modelling but they are generally the ones who have stellar grades coming out of the program. Maybe one or two more are offered roles at a quantitative hedge fund, again with stellar grades, but not every year. Quantitiative advisory, S&P roles are also offered to 1-2 graduates.

Having said that, I think it is a great program with a diverse faculty set supporting the program primarily comprising of practitioners. If your yardstick is getting a high paying job in NYC at minimum investment regardless of the type of job and possible future growth, its the best program out there.
 
Hmm, so the MSF route doesn't have a lot of overlap with the MFE route.

I *think* what you're looking for is something in between a traditional MSF and an MFE. Maybe an MIT or Princeton MFin. MIT is 2/3 of the way to an MSF program while Princeton is 2/3 of the way to a quant program on the continuum. Both have excellent placements into IBD and get at least some quant and strat roles.

If you're under 25, you're in the running for MIT. If you work for a NASA or maybe Boeing, Lockheed, or some F500 firm, you are in the running to some degree for Princeton. (Moreso with NASA).
 
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I am with F500. Since I already missed MIT and Princeton application deadline. Does anyone know whether CMU will let us take few classes from their MBA program.
 
I am with F500. Since I already missed MIT and Princeton application deadline. Does anyone know whether CMU will let us take few classes from their MBA program.

CMU's MSCF grads often land in front office quant or strategist roles, but I haven't heard of them landing as bankers. (It is certainly possible that they have.)

You may consider waiting a year and applying. In the meantime, pick up some interesting hobbies and stay in touch with old professors.

MIT and Princeton really do seem like a better fit for what you're saying you want to do. Or you may consider an MBA. You can also steer a Chicago Booth MBA fairly quantitative if that is what you want.
 
I think UCLA MFE would be the best for my career aspiration as well since they let you take classes from their MBA curriculum as well
 
UCLA is a good school. But you're an engineer who wants to do banking, and I'm not sure you get some of the rules in banking that don't apply in engineering or consulting.

At Google or Lockheed, nobody cares where you went to school. They care that you're smart and good at what you do.

In Banking and Consulting, where you went to school is your brand and your network. A Harvard MBA gives you access to more jobs and a better network than a UCLA Anderson MBA. An MIT Sloan MFin means you'll have a bunch of friends working on Wall Street. A UCLA MFE means you'll have fewer.

UCLA will help you learn business theory, but investment banking and consulting aren't all about competence like engineering is. They're about networks, connections, marketing, and politics, not about creating stuff or discovering things. (This is part of the reason I prefer being a quant, and may explain some of the tension between the quants and bankers or salespeople at a lot of firms.) But if you go this route, you're limiting yourself if you choose UCLA over, say, a Kellogg MBA.

Princeton, Columbia, MIT, maybe NYU and Cornell are great MFE programs and they would also give you good branding for consulting or banking. Carnegie Mellon and Baruch are two schools like LSE, where smart money knows you're brilliant but dumb money has never heard of them. The problem is that as a consultant or a banker, many of your clients, even your hiring managers, will be dumb money. MIT is just so much more recognizable as "OK, this guy is probably pretty darned smart" than UCLA, and that's extremely helpful for a career in banking or consulting.

Trust me, I used to think like you do about bankers and consultants. Then I started to work with bankers, and I realized that I can do better work and offer more insight than most of them could. But their value is in their connections, not in their work. So if you want to be a banker, go to the best MBA program that will accept you, with the strongest network possible, and forget about an MBA.

If you are on the fence, do one of the two MFin programs. Princeton or MIT will open most doors in the quant roles and many doors in the front office. It will give you a smaller network than an MBA program, but that network will involve a lot of people in the front office.

If you want to be a quant, do an MFE at Baruch. But from an engineer to an engineer, if you want to be a banker, forget about the expense of an MBA or its lack of difficult curriculum; just do it- go to all of the parties and events, join the clubs, go on vacations with everyone, and spend two years building a network that you can take with you to Wall Street. It looks like a mind-boggling waste of money until you realize that this is genuine social capital. Or you compromise. Princeton takes 4 semesters to teach what CMU teaches in three semesters. So the MFins have more time to hang out with other grad students on campus, who are often going off to do pretty neat stuff in industry and academia, as well as other members of the program who are going into finance. MIT costs a bit more and the curriculum is a bit lighter, but you're part of the Sloan school and get to make friends with the MBAs as well as MFins bound for wall street and consulting.

MIT's MFin program also gets placements into consulting, too. So if you're not too old, I think it could be a really good fit for an engineer who wants to learn something but go into consulting.

Princeton costs you an extra semester to learn the same stuff as other programs teach in three semesters. MIT charges you an extra $35K on top of regular tuition at a typical program and costs you an extra summer. I would argue that for someone who wants an MFE but wants to keep his consulting or banking options open, the extra semester or $35K extra in tuition is worth it. And you can justify it to your inner accountant with the fact that you're not paying $170K for an MBA.

And with a Boeing or Lockheed on your resume, and a good enough undergrad to get into MFE programs, you're certainly in the running for a top 7 MBA (maybe not HBS or Stanford- those are always a crapshoot, but certainly Kellogg Columbia or MIT Sloan). That may very well be what you want to do.

Or maybe you want to be one of the smart bankers who can speak the language with quants. Chicago Booth gives you everything a top 7 MBA gives you (in fact, it's a top 3 MBA), and many MBAs that come out of there have this uncanny ability to understand what quants do. A few might even be able to do a quant's job with just the tools their MBA gives them.

So just keep an open mind about this. If you want a banking role, you want to aim for a better brand and a less quant-heavy program that allows more opportunities for networking.
 
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If a Baruch grad wanted to do M&A or Corporate Finance or Consulting, he or she is pretty much doomed in my personal opinion. He or she may have a chance to pursue such roles in his or her home country if she or he had a good degree with stellar grades from a well recognized university of that country. Other than that, most of the careers Baruch grads who enroll full time with no relevant previous work experience are in Risk. One or two get offers in Quantitative Research and perhaps strats and modelling but they are generally the ones who have stellar grades coming out of the program. Maybe one or two more are offered roles at a quantitative hedge fund, again with stellar grades, but not every year. Quantitiative advisory, S&P roles are also offered to 1-2 graduates.

Having said that, I think it is a great program with a diverse faculty set supporting the program primarily comprising of practitioners. If your yardstick is getting a high paying job in NYC at minimum investment regardless of the type of job and possible future growth, its the best program out there.

I am unsure where you get your data from, but it is by no means accurate at all.

While true that it is unconventional for an MFE student from ANY school not just Baruch to go into IBD etc, there are a few Baruch graduates who work in IBD. One or two quant research/strats modeling is really more like at least 4 every year (I think in my year, we had more quant researchers roles than risk) and there are quite a few who work at "quantitative" hedge funds of the likes of Citadel, Tower Research etc. Also, keep in mind the entire graduating class is approximately 20-25 students every year.
 
I am unsure where you get your data from, but it is by no means accurate at all.

While true that it is unconventional for an MFE student from ANY school not just Baruch to go into IBD etc, there are a few Baruch graduates who work in IBD. One or two quant research/strats modeling is really more like at least 4 every year (I think in my year, we had more quant researchers roles than risk) and there are quite a few who work at "quantitative" hedge funds of the likes of Citadel, Tower Research etc. Also, keep in mind the entire graduating class is approximately 20-25 students every year.

I am willing to wager a bet with you that you dont have at least 4 candidates working in Quant Research and/or Strats Modelling with no relevant experience in that field in the graduating cohort this year or last year.

Moreover, I dont think you have even a few graduates in the last 3-4 years who work in traditional Corporate Finance roles in IBD at a BB in NYC/US.

I get my data from 2 Baruch MFE alums who graduated from different years who are my friends.
 
I am willing to wager a bet with you that you dont have at least 4 candidates working in Quant Research and/or Strats Modelling with no relevant experience in that field in the graduating cohort this year or last year.

Moreover, I dont think you have even a few graduates in the last 3-4 years who work in traditional Corporate Finance roles in IBD at a BB in NYC/US.

I get my data from 2 Baruch MFE alums who graduated from different years who are my friends.

Never did you mention anything about any relevant experience in your previous post AND I can find four people with no relevant experience who are now quant researchers who just graduated this December. Dude, don't bluff against pocket aces when I know you have 2 7.

And for @New Trader , I think Gollini's post is very helpful. If you want to become a front office IBD guy, going to any MFE is probably not the best idea.
 
@GoIllini Thank you for your insight :)

I totally understand the brand name concept. I did try Harvard right after my under grad (2011), couldn't get it.
 
Never did you mention anything about any relevant experience in your previous post AND I can find four people with no relevant experience who are now quant researchers who just graduated this December. Dude, don't bluff against pocket aces when I know you have 2 7.

OK then PM me their names and lets decide on a notional 100 USD amount. I'll confirm it with my contacts. Read my first post again carefully. I dont think it makes sense to assess a program's efficacy by accounting for placement of candidates in a role for which they had previous work experience since its hard to differentiate as to whether they got the offer primarily due to the program or due to their previous work experience.

Its not really a bluff when the board reads 2 7 7 rainbow, now does it ?
 
@New Trader

Its best that you read about the coming trend in conventional Corp Fin IBD roles in BB of lesser salaries and lower bonuses in quest for better work life balance.

Goldman Sachs has already increased its Analyst intake this year and the trend is likely to follow for the years to come and at other banks as well.

Essentially they want to compete with tech for the best talent out there and dont want Analysts to leave after two years in search for better work life balance.

In doing so, salaries will invariably drop since the same pie will be distributed among more people now.

Also, its become increasingly difficult to transition into Finance from an unrelated background using an MBA. Most Finance jobs at Booth and Wharton, for instance, are taken up by MBAs with some form of prior relevant work experience.
 
You are an aerospace engineering and want to work at a HF. I would suggest you do an MFE then. You already have the background and plenty of hedge funds deal with quant strategies. IMO, that would be the best fit.

An MSF is a corporate finance focused masters. Think CFA subject matter. It will help you break into investment banking, which can lead to a job at a hedge fund, but you usually do not directly go into a hedge fund from an MSF (unless you had relevant experience).
 
Thank you @Anthony DeAngelis , but it again depends on what type of fund I am trying to get in, doesn't it? What if I just want to be in long/short or event driven fund, will MFE still help me to pursue that?

Honestly, I am not sure what area of finance that I might be interested in. I thought if I just got a well reputed finance degree (MSF or Mfin), I can kind of move around and explore further.

If you were in my shoe, would you still pursue MFE? which school would you like to go?
 
@GoIllini Thank you for your insight :)

I totally understand the brand name concept. I did try Harvard right after my under grad (2011), couldn't get it.
If it makes you feel any better, I got rejected twice from the school that I am now attending.

If you're an engineer at a firm like Boeing, and you're an interesting person- you have cool hobbies- you're in the running for a top tier MBA. That's not to say you'll get in, but it's worth the application.

My view is that schools make 2-3x as many mistakes on rejections as they admit students. And if you're circumstances materially improve and you were in the running last time, the prior application actually helps you.

So I would give some thought to a HBS app. Not to mention Booth, Kellogg, Wharton, etc.
 
Thank you @Anthony DeAngelis , but it again depends on what type of fund I am trying to get in, doesn't it? What if I just want to be in long/short or event driven fund, will MFE still help me to pursue that?

Honestly, I am not sure what area of finance that I might be interested in. I thought if I just got a well reputed finance degree (MSF or Mfin), I can kind of move around and explore further.

If you were in my shoe, would you still pursue MFE? which school would you like to go?

Some hedge funds are fundamental, some are quant. This is over simplified as there are any number of strategies, but you get the idea.


I read your post and am assuming you want to break into finance from your current career or just break in generally. If I am wrong let me know.

The usual non-quant path to a hedge fund is through investment banking or maybe something in research. In a more fundamental fund you will be developing trading ideas, looking at macro trends, building a thesis and testing it out. Something along those lines. So I would say relevant finance experience, a CFA and a good educational background would be what you need to break in.

You can break into banking or research without a masters if you network and know your stuff. It will be hard, but you can do it. That being said, your question wasn't "what can I do to eventually get into a hedge fund".

So if you want to do a degree and get a job in a hedge fund, with your current background and without years in another line of work gaining experience, I think you should do an MFE. You already have the prior background for the degree, you could do a top MFE and if you do well go right into a hedge fund. It will be more quant, but it seems to be the easiest way to achieve your stated goal.

If you want to do something else, cool, I can comment more on the merits of an MSF, but I like to try and answer the question at hand, not something else.
 
I agree with Anthony that trying to land a banking job right now is a good choice that I completely overlooked. It would also save $100K+ in tuition and expenses. I'd just caution that some roles in finance would be a step down from a product engineering role (EG designing aircraft wings) at an F500 firm. I'd go so far as to say that OP may have a lower chance of getting into an MBA or MFE program if he's applying from front-office roles at many firms or branch offices than he currently has.

One sketch I like here is that OP finds an opening in aerospace or defense equity research at a major firm in NYC. IBD at a major firm would be even better, but OP probably has the biggest comparative advantage in aerospace equity research. This is one of those roles where if a random person who worked for a Morgan Stanley or a Barclays happened to run into you, hear your background and your interest in this kind of a role, and you seemed like a nice person, they'd really want to help- you don't find that many people with this kind of background at a networking event that often. They also get paid a referral fee, probably. (This is my very conservative approach.) OP works there for two years and then has a lot of options- a move to a hedge fund or asset manager, an MBA admit, moving to IBD, or perhaps Private Equity.

At the same time, OP can pursue avenues into BB IBD, an MBA program, MFin, or perhaps an MFE if this doesn't pan out and he wants to be a quant. He can also test the waters for a local MM role.

So there are a lot of options here. I recognized that an MBA ranks ahead of an MFE on OP's list of priorities, but Anthony pointed out the elephant in the room- getting a job at a bank may be a bigger priority.

I'd just throw in the asterisk that it ought to be the *right* job if OP wants to keep as many doors open to him as possible. And that probably means moving to NYC for a couple years and working for a Morgan Stanley, JPM, BAML, maybe a Lazard or Greenhill.
 
Agree with Illini. Tons of firms (usually based in DC) have defense and aerospace banking and ER divisions. Hit them up and start working there.

I think too many people get stars in their eyes with regards to finance. It can be awesome, but it is a grind many a time. I'd probably tell the OP to find a good job at Raytheon or Lockheed and put in time. With the US pivot to Asia and this countries refusal to reduce defense spending by any measurable about I don't see this industry shrinking in any meaningful way.
 
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