COMPARE MSOR (Minor FE) in Cornell vs Columbia MSOR

[akshatmittal]

@alain .. sorry for using short cuts.. will take care of them in future postings..
I wanted to know from Joe what happened from the discussion at the department at Columbia about taking up courses allowed for MSFE students..
Also i wanted to know that is it better to wait for MSCF at CMU results or go with the MSOR program at Columbia... I've received mixed reviews about the MSOR program.. Wanted to know more about the recent placement rate and the career services offered by columbia for MSOR graduates.
Another query is regarding the class size for MSOR ??

 

[subhrain]

@alain .. sorry for using short cuts.. will take care of them in future postings..
I wanted to know from Joe what happened from the discussion at the department at Columbia about taking up courses allowed for MSFE students..
Also i wanted to know that is it better to wait for MSCF at CMU results or go with the MSOR program at Columbia... I've received mixed reviews about the MSOR program.. Wanted to know more about the recent placement rate and the career services offered by columbia for MSOR graduates.
Another query is regarding the class size for MSOR ??

CLass size of MSOR is 120+

 

[akshatmittal]

@subhrain
all 120 are full time or includes part time as well?
Does anyone have any idea, what percentage of class approximately picks up the finance courses in MSOR program

 

[kbharadwaj]

Why don't you guys find out the statistics by calling up the department and/or career services department of Columbia. That would give you a better idea, because neither of you are a current or previous student of the MSOR, so I feel asking the respective departments would be your best bet rather than asking each other. Hope this helps.

 

[subhrain]

@subhrain
all 120 are full time or includes part time as well?
Does anyone have any idea, what percentage of class approximately picks up the finance courses in MSOR program

FT/PT both I think.

See, most of us want a high paying job, which means most of us would like to get into Finance. You can get the rest ...

I you want more guidance email me at gho05002@gmail.com. I am in the same situation as you are, so I might be able to help out.

 

[akshatmittal]

I have been trying to call the department.. they have put it on voice messaging ...

 

[akshatmittal]

Joe..
can you please tell us what happened to the discussion with IEOR department regarding picking up the MSFE electives.
Also, If anyone has contacts of any alumni/current students of MSOR, please pass them to me as well.. thanks

 

[kbharadwaj]

Akshath, call the admissions department and tell that you need the contact emails of few current students of MSOR, they sure would help you out. That is what I did to contact the current students of my program. Hope that helps.

 

[dkeric]

The original question is "which one is better choice between cornell(MEng) and columbia(MSOR)"

 

[subhrain]

I do not know much about Cornells' program, but if it were to be the same with that of Columbia's MSOR (big possibility), I would avoid it. But, thats JUST ME!!!

I would try to get into a full fledged MFE/MSMF program.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

I try very hard to come up with a good analogy for this MSOR/MFE question but the best I can come up with is someone who buys an old model of BMW and puts on new parts to make it looks like the 2010 model.
At the end, people may not notice the difference but underneath, it's not the same. I'm not going to sugarcoat this whole thing.

If you really want to study MFE, then apply to one. If you get referred to MSOR, obviously they deem you unqualified for their MFE program. You can try reapply next year.
MSOR is NOT designed as a clone of MFE program. It may have great overlap but it is really designed for people who are interested in a career in operation research.

Recently questions about Columbia MSOR program make it look like Columbia should eliminate their MSOR program and double the size of their MFE.

 

[gauravpuri]

I was going through the two programs at Rutger - MQF and MSMF

MQF - More of finance and programming related. Less focus on mathematics. - Offered by Rutger B-school

MSMF - offered by Rutger Mathematics department. Highly math oriented.


What does the wall street demand ? Math or Finance/programming?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Ken Abbott is in a good position to answer this as he teaches and sits on the advisory board of several quant master programs as well as is an employer.

 

[Ken Abbott]

There's no simple answer. There are probably more pure quants than there are jobs for them. Quants who are comfortable with large data sets - that's a different story. Quants who are comfortable with large data sets and who can communicate well - those are in demand and trade at a premium.

 

[financeguy]

I try very hard to come up with a good analogy for this MSOR/MFE question but the best I can come up with is someone who buys an old model of BMW and puts on new parts to make it looks like the 2010 model.
At the end, people may not notice the difference but underneath, it's not the same. I'm not going to sugarcoat this whole thing.

If you really want to study MFE, then apply to one. If you get referred to MSOR, obviously they deem you unqualified for their MFE program. You can try reapply next year.
MSOR is NOT designed as a clone of MFE program. It may have great overlap but it is really designed for people who are interested in a career in operation research.

Recently questions about Columbia MSOR program make it look like Columbia should eliminate their MSOR program and double the size of their MFE.

As a Columbia MSOR grad, I basically agree with this except for a couple points.. I don't think the program is designed for people interested in a career in operations research. Maybe at some point in the past it was. I honestly think it's now designed to be a catch all program for students who are interested in OR as well as finance. A very good question from there is, if you are interested in financial engineering specifically why do you want to be in a jack of all trades program instead of a MFE? There truly is no good reason you should do the MSOR if what you want is FE. That much should be readily apparent and you're rationalizing if you start thinking otherwise. But I would contend that many applicants to MFE programs don't actually want to be quants. They want to be quant savvy front office employees, but it's tough to find a program that suits. An MFE is likely overkill for these people and I would argue that the MSOR makes more sense in this case. Also the final point I contend here is that I think we're getting a bit extreme on the bearishness against Columbia's MSOR when we start talking about the possibility that Rutgers might be a stronger program. I think there are a ton of cases to be made as to why Columbia MSOR is not a good option for prospective financial engineers, and Andy and others have done a great job of making those cases and helping a lot of students to not make uninformed decisions, but we need to draw a line in the sand here - this one is a bit much.

 

[bullion]

Hahaha,its usually useless to get into a school war here. Let's see

The original question was "Cornell vs Columbia" - Cornell and Columbia are both Ivy Leagues, so name brands are arguably equal. While they are both masters in operational research, Cornell's program is at least "unique" from a degree dilution point of view. Columbia has 3 programs competing for the same job, And employers KNOW a great number of them probably got diverted from the MFE program. Cornell at least customized it's program and extended to 1.5 years with a satellite campus in NYC. For NYC, there are benefits to being so close to your school after graduation. But if you aren't the type that is good at socializing with alumni clubs, then I vote in favor of Cornell (Cornell also has the strongest engineering program among all Ivies ranked by USNews)

I'll treat any info out of the admissions and current students with skepticisms. Admissions has an interest in inflating their numbers, and students tend to have a bias in favor of their own or they'll completely trash their own program if they don't get what they want. So it's probably better to use logic and then test your conclusion with industry insider. There are many reasons why Columbia would decide to divert MFE applicants at the first place. But if they were to claim that MSOR are just as competitive, then what of compsci graduates who's taken a class or two on stochastic calculus and modeling (probability more useful.) I have no doubt MSOR end up in excellent positions with stellar compensation packages, but then the question is whether such success is due to the MSOR program itself or the general Columbia name.

Ken probably says it best. We have way too many academicians out there who compare classes, school names, and whatever people think make them more suitable to do the work. But what's stopping you from picking up a book on data cleaning and analysis on your own even if you didn't get to take the class? Everyone can follow a syllabus, how will you distinguish yourself? School name and program reputation will only make a differene in getting you an interview, and the difference between programs in the same school becomes quite marginal for MFE programs without exclusive career service staff like Columbia. Whatever it was first "designed" for, most grads (MFE, MSOR, COMPSCI, STAT, or any undergrad) are gonna compete for the same finance job with you anyways.

 

[financeguy]

The argument about people in different departments at Columbia competing against one another for the same jobs is one that I hear a lot on quantnet and think people really put too much emphasis on. Yes, obviously they are and that sucks, but it's not like Cornell grads aren't also competing with those same people. So let's say 5 Columbia MSFE students, 5 Columbia MSOR students, 5 Columbia comp sci students, and 1 Cornell MFE student are competing for the same job, I think people in this forum overestimate the power of that different Cornell name sticking out. Sure, it makes a difference but in most cases I'd think it was pretty marginal. I have looked through stacks of undergraduate resumes for applicants to summer analyst and full time analyst programs at my bank, and the vast majority come from the same schools. When a resume comes up that says a more unusual school, I don't give it special consideration unless I'm doing it subconsciously. And, yes, I'm talking about the more unusual schools which are on par with the usual ones (when a less strong unusual school comes up I need the rest of the resume to be even more impressive to make up for it). Granted this is not the same applicant pool nor the same sort of position looking to be filled, but this has been my experience when considering recommending resumes for interviews. I don't have quotas to fill for number of students to interview from each school. If I wanted to, I could in theory only choose applicants from one school.

What will make a difference as bullion said above is if there is a targeted career staff that is truly working its balls off to place its students. I did not feel as if we had that at Columbia for any of those programs. Obviously we had career services but I didn't feel as if they were bending over backwards for us. If a program truly has that sort of service, that would definitely be a differentiating factor.

Finally, and this is the more generic bit, I think it depends on what your goal is after you graduate. I'm sure there are positions for which the hiring managers look for particular things. For example, if you what you wanted was to be an equity derivatives quant specializing in developing new pricing models for structured products, I'd imagine most hiring managers will be looking for relevant coursework and they might even have a short list of programs they are familiar with and wish to hire out of. That's obviously a ridiculously specific example but you see what I mean. If you just want to get a regular trading or structuring position at a bank, it's more powerful to have a better brand name school on your resume than a particular program.

 

[gauravpuri]

There's no simple answer. There are probably more pure quants than there are jobs for them. Quants who are comfortable with large data sets - that's a different story. Quants who are comfortable with large data sets and who can communicate well - those are in demand and trade at a premium.

I also feel a math oriented course would also open an opportunity for PhD .
Please correct if i am wrong.

 

[gauravpuri]

Anybody who applied to MSMF at Rutger??
Please let me know if one need to get ones transcript evaluated from an external agency if undergraduate major / minor is not in mathematics?

I am from India with undergrad in Electrical engineering