Why are quants leaving finance for tech or other places?

[Four]

I keep hearing about quants and people in finance in general getting disillusioned about the financial industry and moving to other places. I even knew a former classmate who worked with mortgage-backed securities who decided to quit his job at a bulge bracket to purse a career as a software developer.

So, why are people feeling disillusioned about finance and leaving it for other industries? Is it because the financial industry is downsizing in general and there are fewer job opportunities? Does this affect the quant job market too?

 

[C S]

There's always been a strong flow from finance into tech. Now that the industry is shrinking and some others are expanding, the rate of departure has just quickened.

The reason is because many people have found that once you strip away the "glamour", you're often surrounded by dull, uninteresting people who are only there for the money. And the money pit has been shrinking. So now more and more of the interesting people who were making a lot of money aren't there either. And if you actually do a cost benefit analysis, you find the gains aren't as great as you think. The hours can be pretty rigid, especially if you are business-facing, and most people find they have to commute from outside Manhattan (for people in the New York area), which easily adds an hour each way.

Finance is also hopelessly convoluted. I know many people who can't/won't talk about their jobs with their friends and family because first, you'd have to actually know what YOU're talking about. Wall Street is primarily a place for people who get things done, not for people who take stock and try to understand what they're doing. This means at the end, you've done a lot of stuff you don't understand. Second, even if you do know enough to explain, your friends and family quickly find out that what you're doing is really boring. For some reason, friends and family don't really care to hear about the "exciting" occurrence when the Treasury re-issued a 10YR CUSIP number as a 5YR unexpectedly, causing much havoc at work.

 

[mhy]

The rumors are that in tech you can roll into work at 11am and arrive at your designer architect layout, yoga-studio and Zen-meditation-room-relaxation-pod equipped, free-unlimited-food-drinks-everything, brightly lit, hip, 'green' (as in plants) office with a fabulous view of the Manhattan skyline. Go for a real 1-hour (or even longer) sitdown lunch, get some artisanal coffee in the afternoon, and get a free massage on the company dime before you leave for the day. Oh, free unlimited Seamless. And you get to wear jeans and a T-shirt every day. Did I mention you get paid also?
/s

 

[C S]

The rumors are that in tech you can roll into work at 11am and arrive at your designer architect layout, yoga-studio and Zen-meditation-room-relaxation-pod equipped, free-unlimited-food-drinks-everything, brightly lit, hip, 'green' (as in plants) office with a fabulous view of the Manhattan skyline. Go for a real 1-hour (or even longer) sitdown lunch, get some artisanal coffee in the afternoon, and get a free massage on the company dime before you leave for the day. Oh, free unlimited Seamless. And you get to wear jeans and a T-shirt every day. Did I mention you get paid also?
/s

Rumors? What you described, albeit exaggerated, is what my friends have experienced. WeWork buildings are pretty awesome.

There are trade offs though. While the flex time can be great, generally speaking, tech startups will expect a greater devotion to your job and probably the hours in the end are longer.

For me, the allure would be in the intellectual atmosphere of some of these places. I've found Wall St is really not a place for the intellectually curious, but I've only worked at big banks.

 

[mhy]

Rumors? What you described, albeit exaggerated, is what my friends have experienced. WeWork buildings are pretty awesome.

There are trade offs though. While the flex time can be great, generally speaking, tech startups will expect a greater devotion to your job and probably the hours in the end are longer.

For me, the allure would be in the intellectual atmosphere of some of these places. I've found Wall St is really not a place for the intellectually curious, but I've only worked at big banks.

It's definitely what some of my friends have experienced too.

Once you get used to that kind of life, could you ever go back to working in a corporate job in your tailored shirt, wool trousers, and possibly a suit and tie? You'd have to keep working at those hip, cool, luxurious tech companies because that's what normal is for you now. People would probably even be willing to forgo a large salary increase to keep their lifestyles (which is not necessarily a bad thing if they value the 'perks' higher than potential income)

Intellectual allure is a word many startups and tech companies use - and while some of the companies may indeed be doing things of great intellectual interest my guess is that this is another marketing keyword used to lure people in. After all you're a tech startup - if you aren't doing cool things and saving the world, what is the point.

I still think the most satisfying is to gain some valuable experience whether it be Goldman or Y Combinator Startup then do your own thing, something that you genuinely find interesting and feel that is worth your time...

 

[ExSan]

...
So, why are people feeling disillusioned about finance and leaving it for other industries? Is it because the financial industry is downsizing in general and there are fewer job opportunities? Does this affect the quant job market too?

Could it be because HFT ???? ! robots, super algorithms + high end hardware, are doing the job

 

[Four]

The rumors are that in tech you can roll into work at 11am and arrive at your designer architect layout, yoga-studio and Zen-meditation-room-relaxation-pod equipped, free-unlimited-food-drinks-everything, brightly lit, hip, 'green' (as in plants) office with a fabulous view of the Manhattan skyline. Go for a real 1-hour (or even longer) sitdown lunch, get some artisanal coffee in the afternoon, and get a free massage on the company dime before you leave for the day. Oh, free unlimited Seamless. And you get to wear jeans and a T-shirt every day. Did I mention you get paid also?
/s

Heh, I wish it were that good. I used to work as a web developer for an IAC-owned company and while you can come in on the rare occasion at 11 am, you end up with a negative year-end review if it happens once too often. You are expected to arrive early and stay late (10+ hours) now and then to look like you're a hard worker and someone who deserves to keep their job. Those who leave work too early will get fired after a while. The fancy designer office space is true. The company did have a beautifully designed space; Dwell magazine should have done an article on it. However, the office was in Times Square and faced those giant TV screens that kept flashing One Direction videos all day. I thought I was going to get a seizure if I had to sit there any longer. Interestingly, when I went for a back office software developer job interview at a BB recently, the decor was downright depressing. Heavy dark wood, plain meeting rooms, dark and dreary furniture. Is this typical of back office locations at large banks?

At the internet company there was free food and drinks but nothing fancy like what you might find at Google. More like free Minute Maid orange juice, bottled water, Dannon yogurt, and sometimes a meeting with clients gets catered and you can eat the leftovers, which is pretty good because they buy really good food for clients. They did give us bagels for breakfast every Thursday and pizza for lunch once a month. But neither was very good so I usually skipped it.

There was no zen meditation room (I wish) and some of the meeting rooms were tiny boxes with no windows. The daily 1 hour lunch break is true though you're expected to skip that occasionally for a big project. Once or twice a month you can work from home on Friday in your pajamas. At the office afternoon breaks weren't allowed. No free massages. No free Seamless. You can wear a tshirt and jeans to work but you run the risk of appearing less serious about your work and might be passed over for promotions. But if you're the rockstar developer on the team you can cross-dress everyday and still be promoted. But I think this true of most companies--you can get away with a lot if you earn a lot for the company. I remember a huge scandal at SAC involving a very successful portfolio manager abusing his subordinates years ago.

Yeah, I guess there are some perks to working in tech. I think the only thing that keeps aspiring quants focused (including me) is the possibility that you have that magical intuition that lets you make money in the markets. Then you can be richer than anyone in tech (except maybe starup founders). Is someone going to burst my bubble here?

 

[Four]

Rumors? What you described, albeit exaggerated, is what my friends have experienced. WeWork buildings are pretty awesome.

There are trade offs though. While the flex time can be great, generally speaking, tech startups will expect a greater devotion to your job and probably the hours in the end are longer.

For me, the allure would be in the intellectual atmosphere of some of these places. I've found Wall St is really not a place for the intellectually curious, but I've only worked at big banks.

The intellectual atmosphere is only cultivated in certain companies, like the research dept of Facebook, Google, IBM Watson, data science,mor super cutting-edge companies. But my former tech company was not intellectual at all. The most they did to encourage intellectualism was to host a couple of javascript meetups. Don't quants work in much more intellectual environments?

 

[mhy]

Heh, I wish it were that good. I used to work as a web developer for an IAC-owned company and while you can come in on the rare occasion at 11 am, you end up with a negative year-end review if it happens once too often.

It's just ridiculous, this industry is not one where you measure productivity by hours. I get more done in 2 hours in the morning (super concentration) than the 8 other hours in the day.

Interestingly, when I went for a back office software developer job interview at a BB recently, the decor was downright depressing. Heavy dark wood, plain meeting rooms, dark and dreary furniture. Is this typical of back office locations at large banks?

Not all. I know Goldman's Ops offices in Salt Lake are pretty nice and so is their big tower in Jersey City. The point though is not to get a job at one of those offices because it becomes hard to get out.

Once or twice a month you can work from home on Friday in your pajamas. At the office afternoon breaks weren't allowed.
You can wear a tshirt and jeans to work but you run the risk of appearing less serious about your work and might be passed over for promotions.

At my old software job, I worked from home whenever I felt like it (but really, it wasn't more than 3-4 times a month that I felt like it) and nobody gave me any shit about it. I did a fuck ton more work at home than in the noisy office. Then I bought a pair of high-end earphones and noise has not been an issue since.

At one point I became a one-man team and would take random afternoon breaks and go see the abstract paintings at MoMA. That really refreshed my mind. Did it slow down my work output? Not at all - on the contrary it probably made me more productive. This idea that you are supposed to be at your desk, on call, all the time is ridiculous in software development and companies don't realize how much employees hate it. It isn't 24/7 tech support. It's challenging, time-consuming, intellectual work that demands absolute concentration.

I wore T-shirts and jeans and sneakers every single day, came in late or left early if I wanted/needed to and didn't give a damn. If they didn't like my attitude they could have fired me but clearly I performed up to their expectations so that didn't happen. In fact they gave me a raise.

One final thing about eating - even now, I refuse to eat at my desk unless something truly urgent is going on. Unless you are a trader or someone who can truly not afford to leave the desk, I see all these people eating at their desks and it just makes me sad

 

[Four]

This idea that you are supposed to be at your desk, on call, all the time is ridiculous in software development and companies don't realize how much employees hate it. It isn't 24/7 tech support. It's challenging, time-consuming, intellectual work that demands absolute concentration.

I wore T-shirts and jeans and sneakers every single day, came in late or left early if I wanted/needed to and didn't give a damn. If they didn't like my attitude they could have fired me but clearly I performed up to their expectations so that didn't happen. In fact they gave me a raise.

One final thing about eating - even now, I refuse to eat at my desk unless something truly urgent is going on. Unless you are a trader or someone who can truly not afford to leave the desk, I see all these people eating at their desks and it just makes me sad

So true. When you have to figure out the fastest, most efficient way to program something being chained to your desk is completely counterproductive. A lot of programming problems require inspiration / a-ha moments, and you can't get it by staring at the same problem for hours. The better tech companies realize this; the worse ones keep hobbling along just scraping by.