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Aspiring quant, Penn undergrad, what next????

Joined
7/22/08
Messages
6
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11
I am a rising senior at Penn doing dual degree finance at Wharton and computer science at Penn Engineering, am interning this summer at Allstate Investments in Chicago writing VBA programs for ABS traders, and have made the decision that my goal for a career is to become some sort of quant... I don't really know what to do at this point, though, since my impression is that most employers look for some sort of advanced degree, and after researching MFE programs it seems like you're usually expected to work for a few years beforehand... I'd get a job and work for a few years and then try for the MFE but it's not exactly a great job market right now, I just barely managed to get the internship at Allstate, and I'm not too optimistic about full-time prospects since most people still seem to think that hiring is gonna be way down. The "Wharton Name" only goes so far when the banks are all writing off billions of dollars per quarter and aren't hiring anyone, and I actually have a number of friends that couldn't find internships. I began considering a graduate degree in compsci or finance, but don't know that I'd come out of it with the necessary math knowledge to be a quant i.e. stochastic calculus and whatnot that I know exists at this point pretty much solely because I've heard of it referred to as "math that quants know" but don't actually know what it is... I was starting to get interested in some sort of masters or phd in math, and despite having about a 3.5 gpa or so don't know that I've taken enough pure math courses undergrad to be a legit applicant... I don't really want to settle for a lousy full-time job after graduation to essentially be doing it for the sole purpose of "gaining enough work experience to finally have a shot at a top MFE program," but don't really know what other options I have, or if I could even manage to get a decent job in this market... Don't really know what to do here, would really appreciate some advice.

Thanks!!
--Jeff
 
What's up Quaker!

A little bit of advice before I go on with my speech. Don't be dropping too many "W" bombs if you know what I mean.

I did that about once in the other board, and already people start associating me with that and I start actually getting some not so savory replies (although I did it to criticize myself because I literally almost failed out of the program). It's a top program and most people you will meet will not have attended that program although it was clearly on their list. And you know how the top is treated... there is always somebody out there who wants a shot at that. So I would try to downplay that fact.

I know that coming out of that the school, the student body, the professors and general atmosphere does an excellent job of building the grads into thinking they are made of teflon and will go to great places and achieve great things. And this is very often the case. But you have to realize that there are at least 20 other programs that are trying to do the same thing and although they don't have the ranking, when they see a guy touting his horn, the first thing they think is "competition". People try to smother the competition.

I wish I was in your shoes 12 years ago when I was a rising senior and I had this chance to ask somebody what it's gonna be like, and what I have to do. Well I didn't and I guess that speaks about your own initiative and precociousness into taking matters into your own hand. As for me, I let the world decide for me in a way, not really seeking out the right paths before I jumped in, and just jumped in not knowing how deep things were going to get.

Well since I am in a position to impart to you what I've learned and what I've gathered and also looking at my peers and the market over the years....

If you have a 3.5 with a dual finance and CS concentration, I would try to get a job at a bulge bracket. Preferably in sales and trading. I'm not sure what the market is like now. But I am willing to bet that if being a quant is your ultimate goal, no top program will be able to deny a kid with your profile who worked at Goldman or MS in the exotic options desk or what have you.

I don't know what the current market is like for fresh college grads and Wall street right now. But when I was doing it, if you had a 3.5 from West Philly University (sometimes I call it WaWa U) and you can solve some brain teasers and you present well in interviews, you can basically get a job at any of the bulge brackets. If not in banking then in sales and trading.

Make your money for a few years and see if you can get into the trading floor. If you can prove your mettle, you will have a chance to be a prop trader or join a hedge fund.

Remember, right now you have a chance to do what all these CS/Math PhD guys are studying for years just to dream about getting a job in the front office and making trading decisions.

I still view trading as a young mans game given the speed, the stress, and the sort of risk taking mentality you need to have to do well. You might as well throw your hat in the ring.

If you have what it takes, and I'm sure the training and experience you will get in the companies if you're successful would never be able to be substituted by any PhD or MSFE program, then likely you will never need to worry about going back to school (of course unless you just want to sit there and create trading algorithms like a strategist and be a support guy to the traders who are really the hunters who make the money on the desk and keep the bank running).

I have more than a few friends who never bothered to go and get their grad degrees after coming out from WaWa U and they are now principals at PE shops, hedge fund, MD's at real estate I Banks. They are doing very well and they were able to do that because they got the 3.5 during school and they used that to get that job at a DLJ or Salomon and then once you get your foot in the door that way and at a young age, more opportunities just seemed to have come their way.

And if it does not work out and the bank sends you back to B School or MSFE, well then you have that option to go to a top MSFE or HBS and then try to start all over again.

If what you say is true about not being able to find a job even with a 3.5, then I'm really surprised.

If that is indeed the case and you need to get into grad school now, then spend some more time to get a math minor.

I've been trolling these boards and researching the schools pretty actively for the last week so I know that this is the comprehensive requirement MFE programs desire. Not all the schools will require all of these. Some schools will only ask to see two or three of these. But remember you are competing against some guy with a PhD from Nanjing University who won the State competition in Thesis research and has won the Beijing math olympiad two years in a row, so you better come prepared and do them all if you're really serious.

Multivariable Calculus, Linear Algebra, Partial Differential Equations, Ordinary Differential Equations, Numerical Analysis, Probability Theory or Theory of Probability.

I'm sure you have the computer component down pat, so you don't have to worry about that.. Get a 800 on your quant GRE, and you might as well do a Math Special Section GRE as well and you will be set.

Do the internship and if you can get a full time job there might as well do that too because 1 or 2 years of experience is better than no experience. However, unless you don't start making the kind of money you ultimately want to make and don't foresee yourself making that just doing a job out of college, I wouldn't work there more than 2 or 3 years out of school and just try to get that MFE to take your level in the company to the next step.

Good luck.
 
Honestly? I'd kill to be in your position. I have a 3.23 GPA at Lehigh University with an Information Systems Engineering major and got kicked out of stochastic calculus because it was for the master's students only. It all depends on your interest.

Remember what Gordon Gekko said.

"Those Harvard MBAs aren't worth dog****. Give me someone poor, smart, and hungry. And with no feelings."
 
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