Bachelor Degree + Related Experience = Quant Job?

[peppy]

Greetings,

I've been looking for "Quant" jobs lately and have been contacting a few recruiters. I realize that almost all of them require Ph.D or MS degree and I will post some of my experience and ask how likely it would be to get jobs such as a quantitative trading, quantitative analysis and other ones like this.

Basically, I have graduated with honors and earned a Bachelor of Science degree in a Quantitative hard science: Physics, along with a minor in mathematics. As for programming and computer experience, I have developed online businesses over the past 5 years and have gained a lot of experience in HTML/CSS, PHP, Java and limited basic experience in MySQL and databases. I also have extremely good skills with Excel and have used this countless times with equations and large amounts of data.

My small online business and most of my computer skills were all done outside of school on my own time with my own passion. I have also aced a formal JavaScript course in college as well and aced an upper level physics course dealing with computer applications, simulations and modeling with physics using True Basic programming language, which included Monte Carlo methods, Euler and other algorithms.

As for stock trading experience, I have been trading with my own money (outside of school) for the past 4 years, quite successfully after some learning experience. This was done on the electronic trading markets (Scottrade). I have tried to benefit myself by doing countless hours of Technical Analysis on stock charts. My trading frequencies would be done on the scale of a few times a day to over a period of a few days. I have done some rigorous studying with Interest Theory and Derivative Markets outside of class in preparation for an Actuarial exam, so I do have a basic grasp of call/put options, insurance and other financial tools that may be needed for this job.

I realize that many of my formal education skills combined with my self-taught skills, experience and personal interests seem to fit in well with the descriptions of some of these "Quant" jobs. I figured that many of my (possibly very valuable) out-of-school skills are not as common among other students with only a Bachelor's and even advanced degrees, so companies might still consider me even if I don't have a MS or Ph.D degree.

Please let me know what you think. I am obviously shooting for a "junior" type quant position for better chances of getting hired based on my experience since I don't have a Ph.D or MS. That way a firm could train me properly with the experts and I could get around the advance degree requirements.

Thank You
Regards

 

[Eugene Krel]

I read your background as: physics major that started his own online business with limited experience that applies to quantitative computing and some self-taught finance knowledge.

Unfortunately that doesn't read as a quant job qualification to me, but I am not a recruiter or employer...

 

[Miket]

i agree with eugene.. although i don't know why your asking us if your background is good enough. the easiest way to find out is to apply for jobs and see if you get any interviews

 

[peppy]

I read your background as: physics major that started his own online business with limited experience that applies to quantitative computing and some self-taught finance knowledge.

Unfortunately that doesn't read as a quant job qualification to me, but I am not a recruiter or employer...

Would I sound more qualified if I actually described all the debugging or technical work involved with online business?

I know the business itself and HTML/CSS really isn't important for for quantitative computing except maybe for 5 years with countless hours of coding and debugging experience. This is actually how I got good at HTML/CSS and started extending my knowledge into PHP and MySQL and integrating it into my business as well. I know for sure that debugging and getting programs to work is a big thing for quant computing.

Also, my experience isn't just self-taught finance. It's also self-taught investing and a few years of actual experience with stock trading, which I thought would be good for quant trading.

i agree with eugene.. although i don't know why your asking us if your background is good enough. the easiest way to find out is to apply for jobs and see if you get any interviews

I wanted to ask you guys because I assumed that this is forum was a place where real Quants hang out. I was hoping from some feedback from people actually in the business to see if they even consider hiring people with only a Bachelor's degree or if my extra experience would be good.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

What kind of online business you had? Was it B2B?

 

[peppy]

What kind of online business you had? Was it B2B?

It was a wide variety of things.

The first few were E-commerce type of stores, like selling electronics and stuff, which involved shopping carts, credit card processors, distributors, ect. I was able to sell a few hundred different types of products during my freshman year of college, but this was not database related yet since I was just learning HTML. Most of it was hours and hours of debugging and learning.

Later on it become affiliate businesses, which had lower overhead costs. Basically I would sell a product or service to people online and get some percentage of the profits.

I also built a small association for an industry, and a few discussion forums like this one.

Most of these involved lots of HTML/CSS, but I started converting them all to PHP just for practice. Not so much advanced languages except for debugging and getting a language translator to work and some adobe flash player (action script) coding and a few javascript stuff.

My latest work was involved in trying to build a small social networking site like facebook, just to get more experience with databases, MySQL/PHP and the advanced kind of programming. I actually started getting on a roll for awhile and getting basic stuff to work such as letting people create their own usernames and passwords, create profiles, make friends lists, search for topics, ect...

Problem is, finals and graduation came up around that time last Spring and I didn't have the time anymore. The priority now is I need to find a job, get some money to start paying student loans off before going back to my projects.

Even though there wasn't much quantitative computing, there was a lot of programming and debugging work involved. I also got to implement my own ideas, trying figuring out how to get them to work in order to try making money by myself while I was in school.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Ok, so you are a hands on guy, with experience in web admin stuff and an entrepreneurial bend. We have something in common
You can get a job, but I'm not sure about a typical quantitative role. For that you would need a formal training such as one provided by an MFE degree. For the type of web admin experience you have, while useful, has become so accessible these days. Anyone can install a full featured CMS and shopping cart in 10 minutes. Just look at what you can do with Joomla, Wordpress, Dupral. The skills are less valuable today than it was 10 years ago where you have to code your own shopping cart. And why anyone hires you for these skills if they can outsource for relatively cheap.

What skills you have that I and others don't? I see two paths for you. One is to get a more formal training in the quantitative area. Second, you can find someone that knows you personally who can take you under his swing to get you in the door. And potentially a third, where you just open your own business trading like you have been doing.

HR people these days aren't going to look at your resume without a numerical degree. And you don't have a good network that bypass these gatekeepers.

 

[alain]

...Most of these involved lots of HTML/CSS.

I don't want to burst your dreams but HTML/CSS is hardly programming.

 

[peppy]

Ok, so you are a hands on guy, with experience in web admin stuff and an entrepreneurial bend. We have something in common
You can get a job, but I'm not sure about a typical quantitative role. For that you would need a formal training such as one provided by an MFE degree. For the type of web admin experience you have, while useful, has become so accessible these days. Anyone can install a full featured CMS and shopping cart in 10 minutes. Just look at what you can do with Joomla, Wordpress, Dupral. The skills are less valuable today than it was 10 years ago where you have to code your own shopping cart. And why anyone hires you for these skills if they can outsource for relatively cheap.

What skills you have that I and others don't? I see two paths for you. One is to get a more formal training in the quantitative area. Second, you can find someone that knows you personally who can take you under his swing to get you in the door. And potentially a third, where you just open your own business trading like you have been doing.

HR people these days aren't going to look at your resume without a numerical degree. And you don't have a good network that bypass these gatekeepers.

It sounds like you can relate well with what I do, basically it's just me doing entrepreneurial type stuff on the side and I know many people online who do it (I've never met anyone in person at school or my friends who have done any of this or stock trading though). I also understand that HTML/CSS really isn't programming alike the alain said, but there was a lot of debugging experience involved, which is similar to the same type of debugging I needed to do in Java class, in order to get web design to work properly or other features working.

Do you know what kinds of lower-level entry jobs there are for someone like me. For example, is it common to find like a Qaunt "assistant" jobs where someone with a Bachelors can typically get hired and I can gain experience for a few years before becoming a "full" Quant?

I applied for a Data Analysis job that deals with economics, investing and finance because they accepted Bachelors Degree in physics. Do people with these kinds of jobs usually get promoted or have a much easier time switching to Quant jobs? Are they good for preparing for a true Quant job?

I actually don't know anyone personally who could get me in the door. The other problem is I already have a ton of student debt and can no longer afford graduate school for MFE and Ph.D, which is another reason why I try teaching myself certain skills outside of formal education.

 

[Miket]

im just curious since you mentioned that you took some of the actuarial exams.. how come you're not pursuing an actuarial career?

 

[peppy]

im just curious since you mentioned that you took some of the actuarial exams.. how come you're not pursuing an actuarial career?

I am still considering doing this. In fact, I did not know what an Actuary was until 2 months ago. I discovered the career when I was learning about jobs that I could get with a degree in physics and was amazed at how well it paid and how many people say it's one of the best jobs in the country. I was looking into other finance jobs and was happy to see Quants was another one that looked highly on physics majors, pays a ton more and also seems interesting to me. In fact, before 2 months ago, I never knew that Wall Street and the finance sector were interested in people with physics degrees, even my professors never hinted this...

I bought a study manual to take the Financial Mathematics/Derivatives market exam, which was 700 pages long. The problem is I never had any formal financial classes or nothing and had only 1 month to study. Unfortunately I failed the test, just barely... Although I did learn a ton of information about finance and derivatives. The mathematics involved is much easier than anything I did in physics or in college, but the problem with this exam was there was so much content to learn in only 1 months time, under the stress of having no money coming in and having a ton of student loans to pay off at the same time.

Apparently, people should be studying for 3 months for each exam and the Financial Mathematics exam is equivalent to an upper-level 1 semester finance class (Interest Theory) in college, plus the extra Derivatives Markets materials. The problem is I am unemployed and can't get a job anywhere. It's kind of a "rushing around" type thing, so I can't afford to be failing $200 tests and studying for what could be many months because I still need 2 passed exams just to qualify for the job. Now I am just applying for jobs with the experience I currently have, whether it's Quants, nuclear reactor engineer or military, ect... If the economy was good, I might be able to get hired as an Actuary with no passed exams, then comfortably study and advance in the company pipeline "the right way" instead of trying to rush my studying. Today, it's pretty much required to have 2 exams done before being considered.

So yeah, I am still considering becoming an Actuary, but the Quant jobs sound even better, more challenging and rewarding. They also don't sound like a typical desk job either. I think the big deal is that I don't want to be stuck making 5 figure salaries my whole life after learning now that I could potentially and realistically make large 6 figures and even 7 figures. It's not just the money either since finance and investing is something I actually have a passion in, it would have been my major if I had to choose one outside of physics and I like learning about it outside of school (like my stock trading experience I described earlier).

 

[atreides]

Since you just graduated, you have lots of time....Keep in mind that some of the really wealthy people around today started out making next to nothing.

I think the big deal is that I don't want to be stuck making 5 figure salaries my whole life after learning now that I could potentially and realistically make large 6 figures and even 7 figures.).

 

[Eugene Krel]

Peppy don't be disillusioned into thinking that quants or actuaries are sought solely for their mathematical prowess. Financial knowledge is very important.

Keep in mind that to become an actuary you will need to take at least 5/6 exams and then another 3/4 depending on specialization.

 

[kwlmy]

Peppy, I am not in the financial industry but I think you might want to read around to see what is actually needed to get into finance.

 

[Miket]

without going to grad school i think it'd be much easier for you to get a job as an actuary than as a quant.. its true that most companies had a hiring freeze for a while but many are starting to hire again. i was considering being an actuary for a while so i applied to a few companies back in june when i graduated.. i'm finally starting to hear back now but i've committed to going to grad school so i've turned down the interviews. if u focus on studying the exams aren't bad.. at least the first two. i spent about 2-3 weeks studying for each and passed both. theres a free study manual online.. i can send you the link if you want.

 

[ivanj]

sell side anaysis?

Why don't you try to get into a sell side firm and try to transition to quant from there? I know one guy who did that. By this I mean a less quantitiative position as an Associate, or anywhere in the capital markets side of a sell side firm. If you prove yourself there, maybe you could transition to a more quant type role.

Ivan