Chavez - Genius or Madman?

[lordvid]

don't want to hijack the thread but, unless you explain exactly what you mean but "social infrastructure", I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Allow me to explain exactly what I mean.

Look up Misisones Bolivariones.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misiones_bolivarianas

These were the much-celebrated programs to build up social infrastructure in Venezuela. The whole thing has turned into one big scam, one massive embezzlement scheme partitioned among his cronies. For example, so called schools have no building...no staff, no resources...just an allocation of funding for schools....and no one is quite sure where the money is going.

But to keep it on topic, and in response to you: No, Hugo Chávez is not crazy, he knows what he is doing by removing gold reserves from Western stores. He is trying to prevent what happened to Gaddafi and the ex-Tunisian leader earlier this year from possibly happening to him--when their governments were declared illegitimate and their assets in the West frozen. The same could happen to the Chávez regime's gold reserves in the West should social unrest erupt in Venezuela. Venezuela is not a happy place these days, and it could be monkey-see-monkey-do.
He's a manipulative dictator of a kleptocracy, and he's preparing for potential thievery, but no...he is not crazy.

 

[joel_b]

I think Alain was asking you to explain what you mean in terms of what Cuba built in terms of 'Social Infrastructure', rather than what Venezuela did not.

 

[alain]

Yes, I would like to know what "Social Infrastructure" in Cuba really means. BTW, I said Chavez is crazy as he is a nutjob, very unpredictable.​

 

[joel_b]

There's a hundred ways to read that chart. If anything it should only reaffirm the notion that times of economic volatility create gold bubbles that burst violently. Also, the price line is not necessarily that useful. Lets see the inflation adjusted returns.

Yeah I wasn't passing judgement either way, I agree the price line is not useful. I can't seem to find an inflation adjusted price source, I think I would have to calc it manually using gold prices and the the Shadow Stats on inflation.

 

[lordvid]

Yes, I would like to know what "Social Infrastructure" in Cuba really means. BTW, I said Chavez is crazy as he is a nutjob, very unpredictable.​

For the most cited example, look up "Castrocare", especially the early development of Cuba's healthcare industry in the 1960s, in the decade following the Communist Revolution. (Not the sorry state to which it has sunk in the 21st century, 60 years after the Revolution and 20 years after the Soviet union ended).

A reference with good background material and references cited is:
http://www.cfr.org/cuba/castrocare-crisis/p22532 (from Foreign Affairs)

One of the bizarre aspects of Castrocare was exporting the fruits of Cuba's new medical universities and institutions...maybe to show off:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_medical_internationalism

No, Chavez is not a nutjob. He is a calculating, manipulative, dictator. If he seems unpredictable, that's because he's feigning madness, but there is method in't.

EDIT: Laurie Garrettl's article in Foreign Affairs is subscription only, but the basic text can also be found here:
http://www.ihavenet.com/Latin-America-Cuba-Castrocare-in-Crisis-LG.html

 

[alain]

For the most cited example, look up "Castrocare", especially the early development of Cuba's healthcare industry in the 1960s, in the decade following the Communist Revolution. (Not the sorry state to which it has sunk in the 21st century, 60 years after the Revolution and 20 years after the Soviet union ended).

A reference with good background material and references cited is:
http://www.cfr.org/cuba/castrocare-crisis/p22532 (from Foreign Affairs)

One of the bizarre aspects of Castrocare was exporting the fruits of Cuba's new medical universities and institutions...maybe to show off:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_medical_internationalism

No, Chavez is not a nutjob. He is a calculating, manipulative, dictator. If he seems unpredictable, that's because he's feigning madness, but there is method in't.

EDIT: Laurie Garrettl's article in Foreign Affairs is subscription only, but the basic text can also be found here:
http://www.ihavenet.com/Latin-America-Cuba-Castrocare-in-Crisis-LG.html

Now that I see your sources I can reply.

I really don't need background material. I was born and raised in Cuba until 1995. So I know exactly how it is. Firstable, it is extremely easy to become a Medical Doctor in Cuba. So easy that a lot of people use the Medical career as a safety if they don't get into any other field when going to college. So, there is an oversupply of doctors (a lot of them are not that good). The good ones go to become specialists (very few), the rest become primary care physicians or, what is call in Cuba: "Family Doctors". Since there is no really jobs for them, the easiest way to have them employed is to export healthcare to other countries.

I can tell a lot of stories about it but I rather do it over beers.

 

[lordvid]

do it over beers.

Over beers. Or Cuban ron if you have it

edit: and don't forget the great social institution of the Cuban ballet! To celebrate the artistic beauty and high culture and good taste of the Revolution with the full blessing of Mother Soviet Union! The Cuban ballet even toured in Canada this year...

 

[alain]

Over beers. Or Cuban ron if you have it

edit: and don't forget the great social institution of the Cuban ballet! To celebrate the artistic beauty and high culture and good taste of the Revolution with the full blessing of Mother Soviet Union! The Cuban ballet even toured in Canada this year...

the funny thing is the cuban ballet was established before Castro came to power.

 

[lordvid]

the funny thing is the cuban ballet was established before Castro came to power.

yeah...but it didn't reach its dizzying height of glory until after the Revolution...

you know better than me Cuba has such a great dance heritage of its own...why they sponsored ballet....

 

[alain]

yeah...but it didn't reach its dizzying height of glory until after the Revolution...

you know better than me Cuba has such a great dance heritage of its own...why they sponsored ballet....

It is politically important to present an outward image of prosperity. The best way to achieve that goal is through arts and sports.

 

[AlanComan]

Alain, when you go for a beer do discuss these issues, please let me know; I would like to be present.
BTW, another champion of socialist healthcare (in Canada) just died yesterday of colon cancer - Jack Layton an MP from Toronto. I peg his chances of being alive now at 90% were he in the US.

On a more serious note, I have an issue with eclipse on VB on Mac, but I will post that in the C++ thread.
Cheers!

 

[joel_b]

BTW, another champion of socialist healthcare (in Canada) just died yesterday of colon cancer - Jack Layton an MP from Toronto. I peg his chances of being alive now at 90% were he in the US.

Whoa guy, do you have info actual info to back that up??! No information about the type of cancer Jack had, when and at what stage it had been discovered has been made public at all. Plus even if you're right and it was colon cancer, if you don't catch it soon enough you are straight up going to die.

What's so much better about Cancer treatment in the US vs Canada?? It's still just a bunch of guys guessing and injecting poison into to people to see what happens, generally. I don't see a significant difference in cancer treatments between the US and CAN to support your statement. Anything life threatening gets priority in Canada, if you want to compare wait times for something like hip replacement, then YES you have a point.

Anyway, your statement is ridiculous. Are you canadian? Have you ever experienced the healthcare system?

 

[D C]

In an attempt to bring this thread back to one of its it's main points

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-24/gold-extends-drop-heads-for-biggest-fall-since-2008-as-haven-demand-wanes.html[url=

I was right, a bubble...but I don't think gold is finished yet. Now is the time to buy

 

[Lyosha]

imo not yet (or ever for that matter).

 

[AlanComan]

Whoa guy, do you have info actual info to back that up??! No information about the type of cancer Jack had, when and at what stage it had been discovered has been made public at all. Plus even if you're right and it was colon cancer, if you don't catch it soon enough you are straight up going to die.

What's so much better about Cancer treatment in the US vs Canada?? It's still just a bunch of guys guessing and injecting poison into to people to see what happens, generally. I don't see a significant difference in cancer treatments between the US and CAN to support your statement. Anything life threatening gets priority in Canada, if you want to compare wait times for something like hip replacement, then YES you have a point.

Anyway, your statement is ridiculous. Are you canadian? Have you ever experienced the healthcare system?

Joel, your comment is hilarious.
Yes, I am a Canadian citizen and I lived there almost 10 years.
Now, can you tell me something about the Canadian system that I don't know?
Leaving that aside, even if I weren't Canadian, can you refute my argument? Do you have any figures to back up your assumption that the Canadian system is better?

Now, given that I know the Canadian system is much much worse, I decided and I moved to US. Would you do the same?

You say that anything life threatening gets priority in Canada. How do you know that? How many people : a) Came to US for treatment when their life was in danger (say 3 days to live but the line-up was 5 months) or b) Died waiting?
Have you seen any Americans in Canada to get treatment not available in the US?

 

[joel_b]

Joel, your comment is hilarious.
Yes, I am a Canadian citizen and I lived there almost 10 years.
Now, can you tell me something about the Canadian system that I don't know?
Leaving that aside, even if I weren't Canadian, can you refute my argument? Do you have any figures to back up your assumption that the Canadian system is better?

You didn't answer my question. let's not get distracted here.

I am Canadian, I lived there 30 years. I now live in the US. My family members have gone through and are still going through cancer treatments (currently colon cancer, even).

You said Jack Layton would have a 90% chance of being alive if he had been in the US. Given the sudden nature of his diagnosis, and the fact that the type of cancer hasn't even been disclosed I am baffled how you can say that. What information do you have to make that claim?

Please elaborate. I'm not trying to compare the systems, I just think you're trying to use Jack Layton's death incorrectly to make a cheap comment about the Canadian Healthcare system.

 

[D C]

Alexei Smirnov :: well, I don't think the U.S. economy has stabilized at all and the EU seems to be holding its breath, in fact I think we're in for a very very bumpy road - thus, gold will go up again.

The ETF route is always there too.

 

[AlanComan]

You didn't answer my question. let's not get distracted here.

I am Canadian, I lived there 30 years. I now live in the US. My family members have gone through and are still going through cancer treatments (currently colon cancer, even).

You said Jack Layton would have a 90% chance of being alive if he had been in the US. Given the sudden nature of his diagnosis, and the fact that the type of cancer hasn't even been disclosed I am baffled how you can say that. What information do you have to make that claim?

Please elaborate. I'm not trying to compare the systems, I just think you're trying to use Jack Layton's death incorrectly to make a fleeting comment about the Canadian Healthcare system.

Canada has a disastrous health care system.
Now I am happy to hear that you relatives are getting good care in Canada. But they are the exception and not the rule.
I for one I waited at least 6 hours every time I had to go to the emergency in Canada.
If you actually look at the survival rates of cancer patients in US and Canada you would note that US survival rates are much higher.
Also because of the mismanagement of the Canadian system, it is very hard and time consuming to have regular tests. Here he would have had timelier access to screens that would have detected his cancer in its incipient stages.
What I am saying is that it is ironic to have a supporter of this system die because of the shortcomings of the system he is supporting.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596

Now if you have information to refute what I said let me know.

 

[joel_b]

What I am saying is that it is ironic to have a supporter of this system die because of the shortcomings of the system he is supporting..

Let's do this again: Stop avoiding the question. You've paraphrased your '90%' comment, but it still holds no water.

Tell me, specifically, how Jack Layton died because of the shortcomings of the system.

Or just admit you don't know anything about his specific case (you don't). It's quite disrespectful to Jack Layton, his family, and Canadians for that matter, to fabricate knowledge about his death to make a point about US vs. Canadian Healthcare.

 

[joel_b]

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder. There are >50 million Americans that cannot get healthcare, not now, not in 5 minutes, not in 6 months. Because 6 hours is better than no access to healthcare at all. I'm sure they'd love to wait for 6 hours just to have a doctor take a look at their chronic pain.

Now you say "but there's a law that says you are not allowed to be rejected by a doctor here in America!" ... well I can firsthand tell you that that is B.S., having been rejected despite having immaculate health insurance (after a brief phone call to the insurance company same doctor grudgingly agreed to see me, but it should not have come to that... there's a law, right?). I also know of at least one person who got rejected from an emergency room because she didn't have health insurance on her...

There are just as many people being told to go die in a corner here as there are in Canada. If not more here for that matter...

... and I don't really even like Canada's healthcare system that much, mind you.

Funny...Alan couldn't answer my question...

Anyway, I find so far in my time here it's way to easy to say the US system is great when the person saying that is one of the 'haves' and get great medical. The rest of it is 'not theirproblem' so-to-speak. Of course often those same people think it's not the government's problem either, and don't want their taxes to pay for it.This will over time continue to ruin the country as the poor eventually have nothing left to lose and things get really interesting.

I have a fantastic medical plan here, I just got a whole bunch of superfluous stuff done for free here that wasn't really that important. Seems like a great system, if I look at it selfishly. I also feel the cost of care gets inflated down the supply chain in the US system. I've already seen first-hand places 'billing the max' to see what will be paid out to save me on deductibles. That being said lots of money in the system means lots of research and breakthroughs, which I may have some ethical issues with but whatever.

Canada's system is mostly backed up because the government caps how much doctors can bill. The truth is to open that up more and make the system move faster would be great, but they would also have to face some facts: Healthcare is ridiculously expensive, and Canada's system is backed up because they can't afford it, at least not in the spirit of access to care. Healthcare delivery needs to change there, big time.