COMPARE Columbia MFE vs. Stanford MSFM

[Vixus]

I recently got accepted to both Columbia MFE and Stanford MSFM program, but I feel I need some advice on deciding which one I should accept. I have done a lot of reading around the forums, but could not get the information I am looking for.

Just to tell you a little about my background, I have a master's in EE and have been working in a fortune 500 tech company for about 3 years. I have a pretty solid academic background in both programming and math. My ideal goal is to work as a trader in NYC for a couple of years and eventually work abroad for one of the major banks.

After reading a lot around the forums, it looks like Stanford as a brand seems to be better recognized internationally, although this may not be necessarily true in the financial sector. I also read that a lot of people who graduate from the program end up working outside the US, which is something I would like to try after getting some experience in the US. Columbia on the hand has a great reputation in finance. It also seems logical to study in NYC simply due to its proximity to Wall Street.

I am a bit worried about the choice I am going to have to make mainly because it seems like most of the people in these forums have had prior internships and/or work experience in the financial sector. I am afraid that if I choose the wrong program, I will be at a disadvantage because of my lack of experience in the field. What is Wall Street's view on an inexperienced candidate?

Here is the breakdown that is currently going through my head for these two schools.

Stanford:
(PROS)
- Smaller class size (this year is going to be around 15 people.)
- Cheaper (60k for tuition and living)
- Better brand recognition? (Better chance of eventually working outside US?)
- Possibility of internship (Do you think internship is important considering I have no experience working in the financial sector?)

(CONS)
- May not be as well known for finance
- Harder to find job in NYC?
- Placement service is not great. (From what I read)

Columbia:
(PROS)

- Better connections to Wall Street (Better chance of finding job in NYC)
- Better known in finance (Easier to land jobs?)

(CONS)
- Highly competitive (NYU, CMU, Baruch are all pumping out MFEs)
- More expensive (estimating around 80k)
- Larger class size (around 100. Also diluting brand by having 100 people in MSOR and Math in Finance, which means Columbia is pumping out 300 people competing for the same jobs)

- Placement rate has been falling for the past couple of years.


Any thoughts?

 

[roni]

Columbia:
(PROS)

- Better connections to Wall Street (Better chance of finding job in NYC)
- Better known in finance (Easier to land jobs?)

(CONS)
- Highly competitive (NYU, CMU, Baruch are all pumping out MFEs)
- More expensive (estimating around 80k)
- Larger class size (around 100. Also diluting brand by having 100 people in MSOR and Math in Finance, which means Columbia is pumping out 300 people competing for the same jobs)

- Placement rate has been falling for the past couple of years.


Any thoughts?

1) You said that you want to work in NYC, so you are also going to be part of the highly competitive market, regardless of if you choose Stanford or Columbia or any other school.

2) Also, I think Columbia is well known all over the world, as well. Honestly, before coming to the states, I was more familiar with Columbia than Stanford (don't know if I'm a good example).

3) Many schools from the west cost place many of their students in NYC (UCB, UCLA(?), Stanford, etc.).

4) Last year Columbia accepted 110 but only 60 or so registered.

5) As far as I know, Columbia MFE students are the first to choose and only then MSOR students are considered. And, MFin is a totally different department and I think they use the general recruitment office.

6) Last year, the MFE program had 64 graduates and 60 did find a job (4 didn't respond to the survey). These are pretty good placements. I'm not sure how Stanford did.

7) The good thing about Stanford is that it gives you opportunities in the west and the east cost. (there are financial districts in California)

8) Also, as you mentioned, smaller classes for Stanford.

I, personally, would choose Columbia because I live in NYC, but both of these schools are amazing !
Why don't you contact the alumni of both schools, I'm sure they will be able to help you best.

And, congrats !

 

[Vixus]

Thanks Roni! I see you still have your application to Columbia pending. Best of luck!

On a side note, can anyone else give their thoughts on what the differences may be between these two programs? Is Stanford considered to be more theoretical resulting in a Quant job? Is Columbia's MFE program more practical lending itself to a better chance of getting a trader positions?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

6) Last year, the MFE program had 64 graduates and 60 did find a job (4 didn't respond to the survey). These are pretty good placements. I'm not sure how Stanford did.

roni,
Correction: those numbers are for 2008 graduates. They also post 2009 graduates numbers. We don't know how the 2010 graduates fare in this market.

@Vixus
Stanford program is distinctly different from the Columbia MFE program because it takes in a lot of engineering students within Stanford while Columbia MFE is typical in a sense that it attracts a huge number of international students from Asia and India straight out of undergraduate.
Stanford Business and Engineering schools are well known in the high tech Silicon Valley and Bay area so that's something you should pay attention to. I have a feeling that where a good number of FinMath graduates end up.

There is a plus for being in a small program and there is plus for being in the big Apple. There is no comparison if you want to live and breath finance and the opportunities to network with finance professionals are unparalleled.

I have a feeling that you haven't done your homework on the internship and placement of those two programs. I wouldn't like not having all the facts on my hand to make an educated choice.

Do you know if anyone with similar background to you get a trader position right out of these two programs? What services are available to you?

Your #1 goal is to get into the industry and in a position on path to your ideal career. Which of these programs will be ideal for you? Couple years from now, people will hire you based on your career accomplishment not because the name of the programs you did. The sooner you get this, the better you can focus on building your career.

Hope this helps.

 

[Vixus]

Hey Andy,

Thanks for the great info. You are right in that the school brand will only get you so far and the rest will be up to you and your past work experience. However, the trick is still to get your foot in I have tried looking up the placements for these two programs, but it is hard to say who got what and where and with what background.

My main concern is that with Stanford, it sounds like a lot of the IBs come looking for talent amongst the MBAs in particular and not the FinMath. Plus, it seems there is almost a non existent placement service which may make things harder since no one is going there targeting specifically FinMath students. With my lack of industry experience, I am afraid that I may be competing with these MBA students and therefore, reduce my chances of landing a job. On the plus side, the program seems very exclusive (admitted 15 out of 348 applicants this year), which may help differentiate myself from the 100 MFEs coming out of Columbia. What do you think?

On the other hand, it sounds like Columbia MFE has its own career service and all the major players do come looking to snatch up the MFE students. Perhaps the chances of landing a job here is better? Also I read that Columbia lets you have an internship semester despite there being no information about that on their website.

And yes, I do have a friend with similar background (i did my EE master's with him) who has gone through the MFE program and now works as a derivatives trader. So I know that this is possible.

 

[Vixus]

For anyone interested, I found some information about placement at Stanford. Although it was 2008, I think it gives somewhat an idea of what you can expect.

http://www.global-derivatives.com/forum/index.php?topic=5100.0

 

[Andy Nguyen]

FYI, the OP of that post is also a member here
See http://www.quantnet.com/forum/threads/some-truth-about-the-columbia-msor.1358/page-4#post-15978

 

[financeguy]

5) As far as I know, Columbia MFE students are the first to choose and only then MSOR students are considered. And, MFin is a totally different department and I think they use the general recruitment office.

arg! im a post-crisis MSOR grad and am now a derivatives trader at a BB - and didn't have to wait in line for MSFE students to get my job offers! obviously this isnt the point of this thread but why say things you just guess at?

in any case i think class size at Columbia is absolutely an issue, but so is the fact that it's easier to network and interview with more employers if you live in NYC which IS a big deal.. if you have something to differentiate yourself columbia is a great place to be stepping into the job market from, but if you don't (and be honest with yourself) you won't be very happy in a job market that isnt booming

 

[roni]

arg! im a post-crisis MSOR grad and am now a derivatives trader at a BB - and didn't have to wait in line for MSFE students to get my job offers! obviously this isnt the point of this thread but why say things you just guess at?

in any case i think class size at Columbia is absolutely an issue, but so is the fact that it's easier to network and interview with more employers if you live in NYC which IS a big deal.. if you have something to differentiate yourself columbia is a great place to be stepping into the job market from, but if you don't (and be honest with yourself) you won't be very happy in a job market that isnt booming

I said "as far as I know", a MSOR student mentioned this here, perhaps it has changed or I misunderstood him.

btw, do you mind elaborating here on your profile before + after the Columbia MSOR ?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

arg! im a post-crisis MSOR grad and am now a derivatives trader at a BB - and didn't have to wait in line for MSFE students to get my job offers!
if you have something to differentiate yourself

Let's not guess here, do you fall into the US/resident or international students? Without this information, it would be unwise to assume Chinese/Indian students would have the same leverage for jobs as domestic guys.

What I'm trying to do is not to let other people (some very naively) believe your unique experience is representative of what they will get. Your situation may be very different, for example, you may have relevant experience and a US/European guy, with good network of contact.

That's far from the typical Columbia MSOR profile.

 

[financeguy]

Let's not guess here, do you fall into the US/resident or international students? Without this information, it would be unwise to assume Chinese/Indian students would have the same leverage for jobs as domestic guys.

What I'm trying to do is not to let other people (some very naively) believe your unique experience is representative of what they will get. Your situation may be very different, for example, you may have relevant experience and a US/European guy, with good network of contact.

That's far from the typical Columbia MSOR profile.

I absolutely agree with you. If you don't have some sort of an edge in your profile, you will be drowned out by all the students who are the same as you no matter what Columbia master's program you are from. (And the edge you have sadly can't be 'I'm an unusually good programmer'.)

To be clear about my background, I came in straight from undergrad without a professional network (and certainly not one in NY) and I am an American citizen. My edge was that I was able to get along with people I met who were in the industry and network around based on new relationships - which is something I found most students in the program just couldn't do (admittedly sometimes possibly because of cultural differences in personality). The job I finally accepted was a trading role in a major non-US bank which did not require I be a US citizen and in fact hired others who were not US citizens in other areas.

My point is that the programs at Columbia are NOT free tickets to dream careers on wall street. They are opportunities to study the subject matter while living in the city in which you want to find a job with a big name behind you to get your foot in the door. I found it worked for me because I took advantage of that, and it worked similarly very well for a handful of others. It also didn't work out for a good many people because they just studied and then applied to jobs online. If that's the strategy that suits you, which is fine, Columbia master's programs are NOT for you if you want a job in NYC. I can't stress that enough. Hopefully we can all agree on this.

Anyway I didn't leave that post to address how the typical MSOR student fares in the job market, I just wanted to respond to yet another comment that MSOR students are somehow recruited second in line to MSFE students at Columbia, which is just untrue.

 

[mcgruber]

--------------------------

My point is that the programs at Columbia are NOT free tickets to dream careers on wall street. They are opportunities to study the subject matter while living in the city in which you want to find a job with a big name behind you to get your foot in the door.

financeguy, but this is the case with ALL the quant programs not just Columbia MSFE/MSOR. Student's personality is important and WILL matter more in the sea of 3.8-4.0 GPAs with MatLab, C++, R etc etc etc..

 

[Lyosha]

If you want to work in NYC, you should go to college in NYC.