Competing with MFE grads?

Zeuge · 1/4/12

Based on my profile, you guys recommended that I try and find a quant finance position straight out undergrad, no MFE needed. My question is, how do I compete with MFE grads who have more specific quant-focused coursework? My university does not offer a Stoch Calc class outside MSFM, and I doubt that as an undergrad I would find a spot in the course (most non-MSFM students are Stats grad students who get precedence). Would I have to take stochastic calc somewhere else before I could be considered for a quant role, or would self study be sufficient? Thanks!

Georgina · 1/4/12

Hello,
This is strictly my personal opinion. I don't understand how a person can get a job in finance, with only technical background (math, physics, etc) - regardless of the degree level (Bachelors, Masters, PhD). Although, some might say that understanding the finance concepts is easier than understanding high-level science, one has to have a deep and clear understanding of finance terms. And some technical "gurus" have problems with business concepts (I'm not saying everyone.) One of the TA-s in my pre-MFE seminar said that when he was doing the MFE program, understanding the finance concepts was the challange, not the math/programming (he has a PhD in astrophysics). In these days, I don't think that financial institutes would train people for quant jobs, when they have the opportunity to take people with education in quant finance. It is like IT-related jobs: 30-40 years ago, companies hired people out of high school, and they trained them (or IBM trained them, in order to able to sell the computers) - this is not happening today.

I have heard that top companies would like to recruit students at "brand-name" (Ivy-League) universities, with whatever major, because they think that those students must be smart in order to get accepted by one of the top colleges - with your GPA I don't think it would be very difficult to find a job at one of the recruiting firms.

Andy Nguyen · 1/4/12

Georgina
Do you think this is a young man's game or people in mid 30s, 40s still have a chance?

Zeuge · 1/4/12

Georgina

By next year I will have taken a financial economics and a math finance class, and I don't think not having corporate finance or financial accounting should be too much of a problem for quant finance.

Georgina · 1/4/12

Andy Nguyen said:
Georgina
Do you think this is a young man's game or people in mid 30s, 40s still have a chance?

Andy,

I DO think that people in mid 30's, 40's have a chance. Actually, they might have advantage. By 30 or 40 many people would have Masters or PhD, and work experience. (If you have a PhD and work experience, by the time, you finish your MFE, you're over 30.) I think, any experience counts - not only work experience. I believe I"m better at my workplace (I work in a government business office) because I have been taking care of many issues in my immediate and extended family (from legal through education to medical issues). These greatly have helped my organizational, management, problem solving skills (not only "business" - computational, etc. problems, but how to deal with people, different organizations, etc.).
Our office hired a man, over age of 70, to an entry level job, from a temp agency. He is over 80 now, still with us and doing very well, very knowledgable, and good co-worker. (Again, this is a government business office, and not the "glamarous" finance world, but still....)

However, I also happen to think, that going to an MFE program straight our from a college is a good idea - for those, who love math, programming, and finance. Either way (young or older), good MFE programs take selected people (high GPA, high GRE scores, etc.). And at the end, what really matters is - how good you are.

Georgina · 1/4/12

Zeuge said:
Georgina

By next year I will have taken a financial economics and a math finance class, and I don't think not having corporate finance or financial accounting should be too much of a problem for quant finance.

Zeuge,

I just don't see how one financial economics and one math finance class would help you with writing programs (on C++), or on other language that calculate prices that the traders trade on. The MFE programs (at least, at Baruch) are very rigorous. I think, in order to graduate, students have to complete 12 3-credit courses. (4 courses each semester). All of these classes are very heavy on programming (C++), math, and finance. Full-time students spend the entire day (from morning until midnight) studying, and in the "Quantlab".
Also, the reason for the MFE programs, is not only for providing lectures/study materials/diploma, but the opportunity for networking, internships, job placement. Even in this not too rosy economy, MFE programs have to place their students, otherwise the high tuition cannot be sustained.
What is your plan to secure a quant job? - I'm not sure if contacting financial firms would work, unless you have someone who you know.

I don't mean to discourage you - this is strictly my opinion. Maybe you're fantastic in your math finance class, and the professor who teaches, have connections, who could help you. Or, maybe, recruiting firms at your campus, are offering quant jobs. All I'm saying that you're facing a tough competition (and yes, mostly from MFE graduates), who are very good at math/finance/programming, and have a solid background in all of these.

Zeuge · 1/4/12

What is your plan to secure a quant job?

My school (UChicago) has a fairly good alumni network and top firms that offer quant jobs recruit on campus. My lack of C++ programming experience (I've taken 4 CS classes, one fairly advanced, but none used C++) is definitely an issue but can't it be rectified with some kind of certificate program?
One advantage I might have over the average MFE student has to do with interpersonal skills. I don't fit into the traditional mold of a "quant-oriented" person (no disrespect intended) -- I am an athlete and active in Greek life on campus. Judging only by appearances, you would expect me to be the kind of guy who slacks off in a Corporate Finance class and spends every other night drinking with his fraternity brothers than the kind of guy who spends hours in the library doing proofs. I have a persona that lends itself fairly well to banking and other non-quant areas of finance, but I don't find these fields particularly intellectually stimulating.

JDawg · 1/5/12

Unless you're specifically targeting derivatives pricing quant roles, I wouldn't worry too much about stochastic calc. Since you're just an undergrad, nobody's going to expect you to know that stuff (unless you've explicitly stated on your resume that you do).

Andy Nguyen · 1/5/12

Zeuge said:
I have a persona that lends itself fairly well to banking and other non-quant areas of finance, but I don't find these fields particularly intellectually stimulating.

Do you find spending 10 hours a day building library in R/C++/Python, fixing database in SQL intellectually stimulating?

I have someone in the industry looking for a bright and hungry kid (senior undergrad or first year MFE) for a paid internship to help build a vol-arb business from scratch. You gotta be in NYC by the way. So you don't have to be an MFE but you still need the technical skills. Opportunities are out there.

Kenneth_Chan · 1/5/12

Andy Nguyen said:
I have someone in the industry looking for a bright and hungry kid (senior undergrad or first year MFE)...

Hi Andy, in your opinion, are most of the quant opportunities (internships and starting roles) specifically looking for young?

Andy Nguyen · 1/5/12

I don't think they will explicit say "young" as it will be illegal to discriminate against age but majority of candidates for those positions are young by default.

Zeuge · 1/5/12

Andy Nguyen said:
Do you find spending 10 hours a day building library in R/C++/Python, fixing database in SQL intellectually stimulating?

I can't say that I would particularly enjoy being a code monkey, plus I lack experience in SQL (something I'm going to rectify with a CS course next quarter/over the summer). That is, unless the only way for me to break into quant-dom without a graduate degree is through this route.

JDawg said:
Unless you're specifically targeting derivatives pricing quant roles, I wouldn't worry too much about stochastic calc.

Would you say that a graduate degree is a prerequisite for derivatives pricing quant roles?

Andy Nguyen · 1/5/12

Zeuge said:
I can't say that I would particularly enjoy being a code monkey, plus I lack experience in SQL (something I'm going to rectify with a CS course next quarter/over the summer). That is, unless the only way for me to break into quant-dom without a graduate degree is through this route.

In your understanding, what would be the typical daily routine of a quant finance position?

Kenneth_Chan · 1/5/12

Andy Nguyen said:
I don't think they will explicit say "young" as it will be illegal to discriminate against age but majority of candidates for those positions are young by default.

What opportunities would older students (approaching 40) pursuing an MFE go for? I'm trying to get a general sense of what the norm is when it comes to quant and age.

Georgina · 1/5/12

Kenneth_Chan said:
What opportunities would older students (approaching 40) pursuing an MFE go for? I'm trying to get a general sense of what the norm is when it comes to quant and age.

Kenneth,
I think Andy is right - most of the quants are young. But I think (and really it is my opinion, not the fact, and I might be wrong), the reason for that NOT because employer would not want "older" employees (40, or 40+), but because at this age, people who are really capable of doing this, probably would have other choices, and the other choice might be more appealing.

Andy Nguyen · 1/5/12

When you are 40 with a family, kids to raise, mortgages to pay, working long hours in a volatile, stressful environment is not that attractive. There are more "stable" options such in BO, MO.
So there are opportunities but how many 40 year old would be risk-averse who shun these choices.

Georgina · 1/5/12

Zeuge said:
My school (UChicago) has a fairly good alumni network and top firms that offer quant jobs recruit on campus. My lack of C++ programming experience (I've taken 4 CS classes, one fairly advanced, but none used C++) is definitely an issue but can't it be rectified with some kind of certificate program?
One advantage I might have over the average MFE student has to do with interpersonal skills. I don't fit into the traditional mold of a "quant-oriented" person (no disrespect intended) -- I am an athlete and active in Greek life on campus.

Then you have the answer: if top firms recruit undergrad students for quant jobs at your campus, then they are well aware the difference between an undergrad and an MFE graduates - so you don't have to compete with MFE graduates.
Talk to the firms, what they are looking for, in order to secure an internship/job. Also, talk to other students who have been interviewed / secured a quant job at these top firms.
I'm not sure that if it is a good idea to mention about being an active athlete. "Being well-rounded", is great for applying to good private schools, top universities, and "general" employment (managerial, consulting, etc. positions). What I have seen, quants are expected to be "technical gurus", and work on financial problems all day.

Brad Warren · 1/5/12

Georgina said:
I'm not sure that if it is a good idea to mention about being an active athlete. "Being well-rounded", is great for applying to good private schools, top universities, and "general" employment (managerial, consulting, etc. positions). What I have seen, quants are expected to be "technical gurus", and work on financial problems all day.

I don't see anything negative about athletics. Especially at the collegiate level, it requires a significant amout of discipline and time. If someone has the same academic record and technical skills as other candidates, and they were able to do that while spending hours every day at practice or in the gym, I don't see how it could be construed as negative.

Brad Warren · 1/5/12

Zeuge said:
Based on my profile, you guys recommended that I try and find a quant finance position straight out undergrad, no MFE needed. My question is, how do I compete with MFE grads who have more specific quant-focused coursework? My university does not offer a Stoch Calc class outside MSFM, and I doubt that as an undergrad I would find a spot in the course (most non-MSFM students are Stats grad students who get precedence). Would I have to take stochastic calc somewhere else before I could be considered for a quant role, or would self study be sufficient? Thanks!

I'm in a similar situation as you. I would recommend self-study to try and improve on the areas you feel are lacking. I'm planning on applying for jobs as well as MFE, and then the decision depends on what job I can get.

Zeuge · 1/5/12

Andy Nguyen said:
In your understanding, what would be the typical daily routine of a quant finance position?

I have to confess I have more to learn about this. Most of my information comes second hand from developer friends in finance (who work with quants) and from a few "a day in the life" articles I've read. It seems as though while the majority of what quants do is code, there is also a fair amount of work with math and interaction with other people in the firm.