Help! Advice?

[QuantitativeDreamer]

I'm female in senior year of college at a non-target school in the midwest. Unfortunately, last year after doing serious soul-searching, I realized that medicine is not for me. I applied to many trading companies searching for internships and I didn't get a single one. Most didn't even send me a rejection. I had no choice but to do a summer research internship at a med school this summer. I have delayed my graduation by one semester and I am attempting to apply again this cycle but unfortunately, the same thing might happen again. Since I was pre-med, I chose to be a psychology major (I've realized it was a huge mistake) and my GPA is a 3.9. I am looking for advice here because I am panicked and don't know what to do. I have talked with my college advising and the best advice they gave me was to do full extra year and double-major in math/statistics. I am not sure if this is the best choice since my school is a private college but non-target and the alumni network is not that good and on top of that, it will also cost me more money with tuition. I'm thinking about a Masters in Finance at a top school like U of Chicago Booth's MSF. Do you guys suggest I delay graduation by an entire year and major in Math or to attempt to go straight to the MSF program? I am concerned because since my undergrad major is "soft" that even an MSF might not be enough... Just really stressed because it's so late in the game for me and now I have no idea what I can do to turn my situation around... I really wish I could have known at that time and had been a double math and computer science major and economics minor but it's late now. I would appreciate any and all advice! Thank you so much.

 

[pingu]

You are in a very tough spot!

What makes you change your mind? You need at least an extra 2 years if you want to do quant related stuff. However, nothing indicates you can get the required math/cs/hard science knowledge.

Sorry but unless you do some soul searching again, you will be in a school a lot longer.

 

[Bid Shader]

You are not fckd, but you should probably to do the extra undergrad math (plus a lot of comp sci if possible) + the best MFE you can do after. I doubt direct entry to an MSF is the best choice.

If it's not worth the time and money for you to go through that process, then you probably aren't really dedicated to the idea. Good luck.

 

[Varun Dubey]

Finance is about strong decision making skills and that's the first first thing you messed up. Work on that for starters.

Think as to how you want to improve your profile and convince universities/companies to even consider you. (Currently a quantum jump though)

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

I just realized that medicine was not for me... A lot of my peers have made similar choices and have pursued something else. I didn't realize that I have basically no chance now. It stinks that just because I changed my mind, I'll have to suffer all my life for it now and ruin my dream. I know that medicine is not for me and I'd like to pursue finance. Given this, can you please advise me on my best options as of right now? What would you do if you were in my situation? Yes, I realize I was young, naive, and messed up by thinking medicine was for me but there is nothing I can do to go back in time and change that now. I've talked to many doctors that I've shadowed over the past year telling them about how I feel I've "pigenholed" myself into going to med school and they have all told me that it would be very stupid to go to med school and acquire that much debt.

 

[Bid Shader]

I think you should just get the mathematical prerequisites and then do the best MFE you can get in to. Taking the shortcut to try to get direct entry into an MSF is likely easier now but may handicap you later. Good luck. Lots of people change their minds/career trajectories much later than you - it would have been great if you had known from the beginning what you wanted, but oh well.

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

Do you recommend that I just take math prerequisites for the MSF/ MFE programs or that I delay graduation by two years to do a math or computer science major?

 

[Varun Dubey]

I would suggest taking some Calculus, Probability and Statistics classes instead wasting precious time (2 years) and money.

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

Ok if I do the math prerequisites and graduate as a Psychology major then go into the MSF, will the psych major end up haunting me when I start applying for jobs? I'd imagine I'd be pretty much dinged compared to someone who was a math/eng/compsci major + MSF...

 

[Bid Shader]

Ok if I do the math prerequisites and graduate as a Psychology major then go into the MSF, will the psych major end up haunting me when I start applying for jobs? I'd imagine I'd be pretty much dinged compared to someone who was a math/eng/compsci major + MSF...

I can't stress enough that ability to write code will be of major importance. Do as much math as you can afford (in terms of time and money) and maybe take the Quantnet C++ course. There's no one way to be successful, but the more math and computer science you have, the less time you're going to spend during the MFE worrying about math, thus leaving you more time to really get a deeper understanding of the finance.

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

I can't stress enough that ability to write code will be of major importance. Do as much math as you can afford (in terms of time and money) and maybe take the Quantnet C++ course. There's no one way to be successful, but the more math and computer science you have, the less time you're going to spend during the MFE worrying about math, thus leaving you more time to really get a deeper understanding of the finance.

Thanks I am going to look into that and I've also been looking into Code Academy... I'll also take a programming course next semester. I'm just trying to figure out how much this psychology degree is going to haunt my future since many here are implying that it is the kiss of death. Do I have a good chance of breaking into this industry if I can get into a good MFE program?

 

[Bid Shader]

Thanks I am going to look into that and I've also been looking into Code Academy... I'll also take a programming course next semester. I'm just trying to figure out how much this psychology degree is going to haunt my future since many here are implying that it is the kiss of death. Do I have a good chance of breaking into this industry if I can get into a good MFE program?

Psych degree + lots of math & programming + MFE = just as good of a chance as all but the very top MFE students, in my opinion. You may not be the absolute perfect superstar candidate (someone with a double major Math/Comp Sci + Math Olympiad + MFE), but you can still be a solid candidate, I think.

Having said all that, the sell side is shrinking, and there are fewer structuring/sales & trading jobs than 10 years ago. A lot of employment has shifted to the buy side (or disappeared altogether). It's a competitive industry, and you should be prepared to work hard - not just now, but for years after your career starts - to succeed.

 

[pingu]

What

...I'll have to suffer all my life for it now and ruin my dream. I know that medicine is not for me and I'd like to pursue finance. ...

How do you pick finance as your dream? Why not journalism or psychology (you already major in this) or lawyer or something else?

And within finance, what do you want to do?

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

What


How do you pick finance as your dream? Why not journalism or psychology (you already major in this) or lawyer or something else?

And within finance, what do you want to do?

Read the first post. I don't appreciate your hostility towards me and I'm not obligated to give you an answer. I've chosen this field because I've done my research for over a year and it's what I want to. If you'd like to provide suggestions on the topic at hand, feel free to comment.

 

[C S]

Read the first post. I don't appreciate your hostility towards me and I'm not obligated to give you an answer. I've chosen this field because I've done my research for over a year and it's what I want to. If you'd like to provide suggestions on the topic at hand, feel free to comment.

I don't see any hostility there, although frankly if your skin is this thin, finance (and most definitely trading) is not the place for you. There's nothing in the first post to explain why you would pick finance, especially since it's not really the place to be nowadays (neither for dreamers nor for pragmatists). I suppose we're left to read between the lines.

You're not going to listen to this, I suppose, but what kind of research could you have done over a year to now realize this is what you want to do? It apparently didn't involve taking any difficult quantitative courses. What makes you think you have the chops? You realize if it turns out you don't, you'll just have a big fail again. Switching career plans at this early stage of your life is not as damaging as one might think, but probably the toughest way to switch is go from studying soft subjects to hard subjects.

What your counselor told you is the best idea. Try the double major in a year. If you can't excel in that, then why bother with the rest?

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

I don't see any hostility there, although frankly if your skin is this thin, finance (and most definitely trading) is not the place for you. There's nothing in the first post to explain why you would pick finance, especially since it's not really the place to be nowadays (neither for dreamers nor for pragmatists). I suppose we're left to read between the lines.

You're not going to listen to this, I suppose, but what kind of research could you have done over a year to now realize this is what you want to do? It apparently didn't involve taking any difficult quantitative courses. What makes you think you have the chops? You realize if it turns out you don't, you'll just have a big fail again. Switching career plans at this early stage of your life is not as damaging as one might think, but probably the toughest way to switch is go from studying soft subjects to hard subjects.

What your counselor told you is the best idea. Try the double major in a year. If you can't excel in that, then why bother with the rest?

Ok so you think I should double major instead of go straight for the MFE? Can you give me your opinion on why you think this is the best option because others here are telling me to take the MFE pre-requisites and then go for the MFE without spending the money double majoring. If I can get almost straight As and do well in all my pre-med courses (As including Organic Chemistry and Physics), I know I have the ability to buckle down and study hard for quantitative course work, so I'm not at all concerned about that. What I don't understand is why people on this forum think it's a good idea to throw down $450k for med school when my heart has changed on this. I don't understand why you all implying I don't have a realistic shot in this field given how my whole college career was based around going to med school. I've done a lot of research including talking to traders in person, and other people in other fields within finance. Over the past year, I've joined my college's finance club and this year I have a position on the executive board. The reason I have not formally made my decision until this year was because I wanted to make sure I have a realistic shot in pursuing quantitative finance before forgoing medicine all together. Based on the majority of responses, it seems you all think I'm just a total loser that has no chance and I really can't grasp an understanding of why. My situation may not be ideal but it is what it is. I guess I'd rather have you all be blunt and honest with me than sugar coating my situation.

 

[ShowMeTheLight]

I just realized that medicine was not for me....

So if you are so confident in your decision, why can't you clearly articulate why medicine is not for you? Saying "its just not for me" makes it sounds like either (1) you are not admitting something or (2) you really don't know what you want.

My wife is a doctor, so I have some perspective in multiple fields. If I had it to do over again, I would have gone to med school. In fact, I would do it now, except I'm just old enough and make just enough that it wouldn't make a lot of sense.

I urge you to reconsider your decision not to pursue medicine. There are several reasons:
1. Healthcare is the #1 growing industry for the foreseeable future in this country, as virtually all others, including finance and even technology (believe it or not) see limited wage growth, competition and cost cutting.

2. Doctors still command a great deal of respect and admiration from the public. You will find that virtually all of your friends will be so uninterested in finance that they would rather watch grass grow. There is something to be said for delivering a tangible, valuable, appreciated service to regular people. Finance is largely about being a piranha hunting for nickels and dimes to help make the markets efficient. Hedge funds are largely just coin flippers, the top 10% of which tell themselves they have "incredible skill"-- until their luck runs out.

3. Despite all of the rhetoric about insurance squeezing doctors, the reality is that they still command amongst the highest pay. Moreover, the highest paying jobs for doctors tend to be located in low cost of living areas. To make $200-$300K in finance or engineering, you have to live in an area like NYC where $300K is like $150K everywhere else.

4. There is quite a bit of room for advancement in medicine. Plus, advancement is largely meritocratic and well structured. In the corporate (or even academic world), you can't just enroll in a specialty, study for 2-4 years and double your pay. Its a lot of luck, personality, who you know and being in the right place at the right time. Plus, there is a fair bit of risk in finance, whereas a doctor has 100% job security for life.

5. Being a doctor still afford the opportunity to start your own small business (practice), if you so desire. If you have an entrepreneurial spirit, you can do quite well going this route. The best way to do this currently is to cash in on the growing number of Obamacare and Medicaid enrollees by opening up clinics that exhibit a family practice atmosphere. My wife's bosses are doing this and literally minting millions as we speak...

6. If you still want to work in the financial industry (doubtful), you can always quit your practice and go to work for an insurance company, management consulting or even an investment bank (I see Goldman Sachs advertising for MDs).

 

[pingu]

Read the first post. I don't appreciate your hostility towards me and I'm not obligated to give you an answer. I've chosen this field because I've done my research for over a year and it's what I want to. If you'd like to provide suggestions on the topic at hand, feel free to comment.

I'm trying to give you a dose of reality. If you know what you want to do in finance, you can probably apply to job with just the psych major and save all the other headache.

However, you haven't been able to articulate what you want to do. Also, to add insult to injury, you feel hurt when somebody tells you the truth. You will have a hard time working in finance if you don't get some thicker skin.

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

I'm trying to give you a dose of reality. If you know what you want to do in finance, you can probably apply to job with just the psych major and save all the other headache.

However, you haven't been able to articulate what you want to do. Also, to add insult to injury, you feel hurt when somebody tells you the truth. You will have a hard time working in finance if you don't get some thicker skin.

I appreciate that. I can't just apply to the jobs unfortunately because despite my 3.9 GPA and numerous leadership positions, every trading and sales & trading internship has either rejected me or never got back to me.

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

So if you are so confident in your decision, why can't you clearly articulate why medicine is not for you? Saying "its just not for me" makes it sounds like either (1) you are not admitting something or (2) you really don't know what you want.

My wife is a doctor, so I have some perspective in multiple fields. If I had it to do over again, I would have gone to med school. In fact, I would do it now, except I'm just old enough and make just enough that it wouldn't make a lot of sense.

I urge you to reconsider your decision not to pursue medicine. There are several reasons:
1. Healthcare is the #1 growing industry for the foreseeable future in this country, as virtually all others, including finance and even technology (believe it or not) see limited wage growth, competition and cost cutting.

2. Doctors still command a great deal of respect and admiration from the public. You will find that virtually all of your friends will be so uninterested in finance that they would rather watch grass grow. There is something to be said for delivering a tangible, valuable, appreciated service to regular people. Finance is largely about being a piranha hunting for nickels and dimes to help make the markets efficient. Hedge funds are largely just coin flippers, the top 10% of which tell themselves they have "incredible skill"-- until their luck runs out.

3. Despite all of the rhetoric about insurance squeezing doctors, the reality is that they still command amongst the highest pay. Moreover, the highest paying jobs for doctors tend to be located in low cost of living areas. To make $200-$300K in finance or engineering, you have to live in an area like NYC where $300K is like $150K everywhere else.

4. There is quite a bit of room for advancement in medicine. Plus, advancement is largely meritocratic and well structured. In the corporate (or even academic world), you can't just enroll in a specialty, study for 2-4 years and double your pay. Its a lot of luck, personality, who you know and being in the right place at the right time. Plus, there is a fair bit of risk in finance, whereas a doctor has 100% job security for life.

5. Being a doctor still afford the opportunity to start your own small business (practice), if you so desire. If you have an entrepreneurial spirit, you can do quite well going this route. The best way to do this currently is to cash in on the growing number of Obamacare and Medicaid enrollees by opening up clinics that exhibit a family practice atmosphere. My wife's bosses are doing this and literally minting millions as we speak...

6. If you still want to work in the financial industry (doubtful), you can always quit your practice and go to work for an insurance company, management consulting or even an investment bank (I see Goldman Sachs advertising for MDs).

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this post. Everything you said was very insightful and well thought out. But, yes, I'm more interested in quant trading or sales and trading. Again, towards the end of my sophomore year, I spent many hours shadowing physicians who literally begged me not to pursue medicine. I'm wondering, what specialty is your wife in? I have only shadowed one doctor that said he would do it all over again. The majority told me that they would not because of dealing with insurance and Obamacare. During my junior year, I kept trying to convince myself to stay with medicine because I felt it was too late for me. However, I joined my school's finance club and started networking with people in the industry and I felt that I should make the leap for it and switch. I am now a senior and again, I realize my situation is not ideal but I want to try to make the switch because I don't think it's wise to spend $450k when my heart is not in it. It would be interesting to try to make the switch after getting an MD into finance and I even heard of an MD that is a trader... however, I'm not sure if it is a good idea for me to ONLY pursue the MD just to hope to break into quantitative finance down the line? It is interesting because in some of my chemistry classes, I would have post-bacs in the class with me and some were consultants and lawyers. It's easy for them to change careers to go into medicine because all they had to do was enroll in a post bac program and take classes, sit for the exam, then med school. However, it's unfortunate that for me, as a "soft" psych major (with pre-med science courses including Calculus, Statistics, Physics, Organic Chem, Chem, etc...), many here are implying that it will be very hard for me to break into quantitative finance? Again, my main concern is that if I apply for the MFE after taking the pre-requisites, obtain the MFE, and apply for jobs, I may not be seen as competitive because my undergraduate degree will be in Psychology. Will that be a black stain on my resume even after I've made the switch and have obtained an MFE? I know that some people major in econ, eng, comp sci, etc then go onto MFE and will have a better chance at breaking in than me most likely? The issue is if I stay an extra 1.5-2 years to obtain a 2nd major in computer science or math, it will cost me more money on top of what I would have to spend to obtain the MFE. I am confused because some are suggesting I stay an extra 1.5-2 years to do a double major and some are saying just complete the MFE prerequisites and go onto an MFE program.