How is this for a theoretical undergrad schedule?

[Connor]

I agree with everything esahione has said here. And joel_b makes a strong argument for dropping the business major when he points out that no one knows the future state of quant finance or MFE programs but focusing on computer science and math will prepare you for a wide range of quantitative careers.

 

[euroazn]

But not all of those classes are directly useful... or am I incorrect?
They simply give me a broader mathematical background.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.






The thing is, finance and a little bit of a social life (taking a filled-to-the-brim schedule of upper level mathematics courses tends to prohibit that) provide utility :S

EDIT: Just saw Connor's post. If I cannot be a quant, I'd rather persue a different finance career, not a different quantitative career. Does that change things?

 

[esahione]

But not all of those classes are directly useful... or am I incorrect?
They simply give me a broader mathematical background.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Not everything must be directly related to be useful. For instance, while abstract algebra may not give you an edge in trading, it may help you think about the world in a different way, this includes the financial markets. I'm a firm believer that if a subject enriches your mind, it makes you smarter. Just take a look at average GMATs from Math Majors vs Business Majors. The first is almost 13% above average, while the second is 1% behind the average.

By the way, I also have a problem with majoring in business: it is not technical, and it doesn't demand intelligence. Therefore, anyone can learn it, which means that you don't really get a competitive advantage by doing it.

 

[euroazn]

Just take a look at average GMATs from Math Majors vs Business Majors. The first is almost 13% above average, while the second is 1% behind the average.

While this is true, it is likelier that people who would want to do business (i.e more extroverted individuals) are not as intelligent on average as the generally more "geeky" (call it passionate if you will ) math majors.

And while abstract algebra gives you a different take on things, won't a business perspective give you a different take on things as well?

Thanks for continuing this debate/discussion with me
You may just convince me in the end haha.

EDIT: As for anyone can learn business: this is true, but people skills are always useful, technical or not. And accounting/simmiliar studies, while can be learned by anyone, still take time. Finance, on the other hand, is relatively technical imho.

 

[bigbadwolf]

EDIT: Also I'd rather not take Abstract Algebra... the other high level classes I can manage but Abstract Algebra is rather a ***** :P
Thanks for all your input, eagerly waiting for rebuttals.

There is nothing wrong with algebra and it does "broaden" your mind and help you see the world in a new way -- as do topology, number theory, combinatorics, and algebraic curves. The problem is paucity of time and attention capacity. Just mastering ODEs, PDEs, numerical methods, algorithms, probability and stochastic processes, and programming languages like C++ is going to demand a heavy commitment of time and effort. Stick to these things and give pure math a pass. Also avoid as much of the business fluff courses as you can. Applied math, numerical analysis, and scientific programming are key.

 

[euroazn]

By "avoiding as much business fluff as you can" - you also mean to cut the finance major entirely?

 

[bigbadwolf]

By "avoiding as much business fluff as you can" - you also mean to cut the finance major entirely?

If you want to be a quant, I think so. At some stage you want to learn how to read financial statements, the mysteries of double-entry book-keeping, and so on. But at this stage keep a focus on the hard applied math and hard programming. A lot of the business fluff is either superfluous or something you can learn easily by yourself. The same can't be said of applied math and programming, which demand a sustained intellectual effort and a determined attempt at developing skill. Once you learn how to solve a PDE numerically and to code the numerical algorithm in C++, you will be at a pinnacle of perception and skill all those business types, lugging their heavy texts on corporate finance, could never dream of arriving at.

 

[FedericoM]

To pursue a career in Quantitative Finance requires, of course, a strong Mathematical backround, as well as programming. So, as I will do attending University, it's important to focus on these subjects.

But I strongly believe that a knowledge of basic Finance and Business would help you to have a broaden view on what you're studying. This, however, can also be achieved by self-study. Besides, if you change up your mind (who knows, what your interests will be in the future) it will give you the possibility to change your career, but always remaining in the Financial field.

In my University Faculty, for example, we study EDP and Analysis I,II,III, but I have also an exam whose name is "Economy and Corporate Finance". Maybe it'll be easier than the high level Maths courses, but I think it's very useful, too.

Who does not agree with me, please say it. It's never too late to know something better.

 

[Connor]

Business degrees aren't intellectually demanding and employers know this. And thus they are often more than willing to hire graduates that are smart from non-business disciplines. I know that big investment banks and investment management firms with strong training programs are more than willing to hire graduates with any background.

If you aren't interested in any other quantitative career but other finance careers, I question your decision to do quantitative finance in the first place. You may be much happier with another career path. In which case other degree combinations would be better suited to you.

 

[euroazn]

I like the fact that the job of a quant mixes the hard science of mathematics and programing (as well as taking concepts from physics, etc) with the soft (dare I say it?) science of finance. To this
date I know of no other career that can do this.

Interestingly enough, CMU's MCF website states that a substantial portion of their graduates studied business in their undergraduate years (I saw this a while back, but I believe this was in the comparison of employment statistics.) Can someone comment on that?

Thank you all for your time and sorry if I am infuriating somebody with my stubborness

 

[bigbadwolf]

Business degrees aren't intellectually demanding and employers know this.

In terms of ease, business degrees are right down there with degrees in education and "communications." In terms of hardness, I think degrees in math, physics, and engineering are at the pinnacle. In my apartment building, the day shift supervisor for security has a degree in business. A pleasant fellow and competent enough for what he does, but congenitally incapable of understanding complex ideas or mastering complex skills.

 

[euroazn]

I think we're confusing cause and effect here. It's not that business degrees make you dumb, it's that generally less "intelligent" (although many have skills, such as communication, that makes then "intelligent" in their own right...) people take business.

If I take a combination degree I still do not see any reason for why I am left out. :|

 

[bigbadwolf]

I think we're confusing cause and effect here. It's not that business degrees make you dumb, it's that generally less "intelligent" (although many have skills, such as communication, that makes then "intelligent" in their own right...) people take business.

I don't think anyone is saying they make you stupid. But also they don't test you, don't stretch you, don't you make you develop what may be latent abilities.

If I take a combination degree I still do not see any reason for why I am left out. :|

Ars longa, vita brevis (art is long, life is short). PDEs, probability and stochastic theory, numerical analysis, programming, will take time to assimilate, time to develop skill at. Why add to the burden by taking worthless fluff courses which will likely not impress anyone who matters? In consonance with the philosophy that less is more, take fewer courses, more focused courses, more technical courses, more abstruse courses, and try to digest them properly instead of scurrying around feverishly adding fluff courses to your resume, taking precious time away from learning, thinking about, and developing skill at the things that matter.

 

[euroazn]

But what if... I'm taking finance for fun? :|
If you remove my finance courses, I'm taking at least the average number of credits anyways. Rebuttals please
And if fluff really is fluff, it shouldn't really take time away from my other courses.

 

[Connor]

And if fluff really is fluff, it shouldn't really take time away from my other courses.

No matter the difficulty of your courses there is a limit to how many you can take in a semester. Yes business courses are easier than math courses but that doesn't mean you can 10 business courses in one semester. We are saying that taking a fluff business course not related to finance is a waste of time and that time is better used taking more advanced math and computer science courses.

If UMD won't let you take upper level finance courses without a business major (or get a minor in finance) then go to another university.

 

[euroazn]

That may not be possible due to finances No pun intended, unfortunately.
Also, I'm never taking 10 business courses a semester :|
The most I ever take is four in my schedule; Fall Semester Senior Year. However, the majority of those courses certainly aren't fluff, particularly the fund management.

 

[bigbadwolf]

And if fluff really is fluff, it shouldn't really take time away from my other courses.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing. You still have to attend classes, hand in assignments, prepare for exams. These things gobble up time and nervous energy. It's senseless busyness. At this stage anything that is not hardcore applied math and scientific programming is a waste of time for a prospective quant. If you have trouble seeing this, perhaps you should question whether you're really cut out for the quant life. There are other areas in finance that might be a better fit.

 

[euroazn]

Can you suggest some of these other prospective careers please? And sorry, really, I didn't mean to irritate anyone or give of the impression that I was "arguing for the sake of arguing."

I was arguing for the sake of figuring out what my plan is =)

 

[MSFHQ]

Decide what you want to do. U of Maryland is not a banking target school. Taking business classes will short change you for a future MFE and it will only place you in F500 corporate finance or back office. Load up on math and other quant preparing classes and try and get into the best MFE program you can.

If you want to be a quant you should be taking quant classes.

 

[euroazn]

It's not that I am solely persuing a business major - I am taking quant classes.

As for the notion that even taking business classes will short-change me for an MFE - http://tepper.cmu.edu/master-in-com...eer/recruiting-partners/download.aspx?id=6263 (page 6) says that 20% of CMU MFE participants in 2009 had business undergrad majors. And their compensation was barely lower. Can someone point to me where my logic is going wrong???

EDIT: Also, correct me if I'm wrong Anthony, but you yourself were a finance major (and no double major even) at Syracuse - not a "target" school itself. I am not trying to belittle you, rather, I am just pointing out that you made an MSF just fine...