Large Number of International Students in MFE Programs

[Sailor Sam]

Hey everyone,

I was hoping you could explain why many of the top-notch Financial Engineering programs have a majority in international students, and a minority are from the States. I understand that all foreign students who are admitted are incredibly bright, but it surprises me that American students with the same interest and intellectual abilities are not enrolling. This concerns me a bit, as I've heard from some that the masters degree is like a "scam," drawing in rich foreign students who are able to spend the high tuition costs on this degree.

I'm probably worrying over nothing, but any input would be appreciated!

 

[bigbadwolf]

If FE programs were denied foreign students, most would fold. There's a little tacit agreement involved: We (the FE program) charge stratospheric fees; in return you get a marketable credential that might get you employment and a concomitant work visa for the USA. Take out this tacit agreement and again most FE programs would collapse. This is why the programs are so cagey and guarded about their placement and employment stats.

 

[MelD]

I'm having the same concern. Sometimes I feel like I'm going to pay the 65k $ just to get a visa to work in the US. That's a heck of a lot for a visa...

It's a question worth asking yourself whether having the possibility to work in the US is worth so much money.
As far as I am concerned, I haven't decided yet.

 

[Sailor Sam]

So then is the MFE degree a less attractive option for domestic students? What should they be pursuing? Why aren't they enrolling in MFE programs?

 

[Ken Abbott]

So then is the MFE degree a less attractive option for domestic students? What should they be pursuing? Why aren't they enrolling in MFE programs?

Domestic students probably have a better feeling for the local job market.

 

[Quant4Life]

Domestic students probably have a better feeling for the local job market.

Also, many domestic students don't really want to reallocation and thus attend local schools and look for local jobs. US definitely offers the best quant education overall, but there are students applying from all over the world. A bigger concern IMO is when a program has 80%+ Chinese just students. From my estimates NYU currently has 90% Chinese students. There is one US guy from NYU who put on his resume that he is US citizen. Kinda weird...

 

[AndrewChang]

Hey everyone,

I was hoping you could explain why many of the top-notch Financial Engineering programs have a majority in international students, and a minority are from the States. I understand that all foreign students who are admitted are incredibly bright, but it surprises me that American students with the same interest and intellectual abilities are not enrolling. This concerns me a bit, as I've heard from some that the masters degree is like a "scam," drawing in rich foreign students who are able to spend the high tuition costs on this degree.

I'm probably worrying over nothing, but any input would be appreciated!

If you speak perfect English and have quant skills, you don't need to do an FE to get into the top places. That's the main reason you don't find American students with "ability" doing FE.

 

[Quant4Life]

If you speak perfect English and have quant skills, you don't need to do an FE to get into the top places. That's the main reason you don't find American students with "ability" doing FE.

Agree. Also (I am assuming), US students who do go into MFE are likely to already have a job (maybe quant) and the employer covers for the mfe cost...

 

[CasanovaJ]

The argument that "American applicants avoid MFE programs because they're not willing to spend $60k per year for graduate degrees while foreign students are because it's their way of getting a US visa" is wrong. Law degrees, MBA's, and MD's cost just as much per year as MFE's do, in aggregate they actually cost a hell of a lot more because they're much longer programs, and all of them are still pretty overwhelmingly American. There's over a trillion dollars of student loan debt now... foreigners in MFE programs aren't the only people getting ripped off by the American education system.

The answer to "why Americans don't do MFE programs" is that the handful of Americans interested in engineering nowadays tend to dream of getting jobs at Google, not Goldman, and the ones that actually do want to be quants are usually able to get jobs right from undergrad.

 

[damonloveavril]

Also, an international student with a master degree has two H1B lottery chances while only one with a bachelor degree.

 

[bigbadwolf]

The argument that "American applicants avoid MFE programs because they're not willing to spend $60k per year for graduate degrees while foreign students are because it's their way of getting a US visa" is wrong. Law degrees, MBA's, and MD's cost just as much per year as MFE's do, in aggregate they actually cost a hell of a lot more because they're much longer programs, and all of them are still pretty overwhelmingly American. There's over a trillion dollars of student loan debt now... foreigners in MFE programs aren't the only people getting ripped off by the American education system.

The answer to "why Americans don't do MFE programs" is that the handful of Americans interested in engineering nowadays tend to dream of getting jobs at Google, not Goldman, and the ones that actually do want to be quants are usually able to get jobs right from undergrad.

You make a good point with regard to US students but the point with regard to foreign students still holds: Why would a Chinese or Indian student fork out, say, $60,000 if not for a crack at the US job market and a work visa? This money is not trivial for them. I'm convinced that in many cases they're being sold a bill of goods, under false pretences.

 

[CasanovaJ]

You make a good point with regard to US students but the point with regard to foreign students still holds: Why would a Chinese or Indian student fork out, say, $60,000 if not for a crack at the US job market and a work visa? This money is not trivial for them. I'm convinced that in many cases they're being sold a bill of goods, under false pretences.

And again, they're not being sold any less of a "bill of goods" than American kids are who have been shelling out $180k for 4th tier law degrees, and I don't see why a university's quant program should be charging any less than any other professional programs are at the exact same universities... This is not a case of "MFE programs cynically exploiting foreigners who are desperate for work visas"... it's a case of American universities exploiting everyone. At least foreigners are getting the "work visa and the chance at a new life" out of it. American kids are just forking over the exact same amounts of money for the exact same crappy educuations and calling it a day....

 

[bigbadwolf]

And again, they're not being sold any less of a "bill of goods" than American kids are who have been shelling out $180k for 4th tier law degrees, and I don't see why a university's quant program should be charging any less than any other professional programs are at the exact same university...

True.

This is not a case of "MFE programs cynically exploiting foreigners who are desperate for work visas"... it's a case of American universities exploiting everyone.

Again, true.

At least foreigners are getting the "work visa and the chance at a new life" out of it.

Ah, that's what we're discussing: the mirage of a new life. The Americans are also buying a mirage ("Start a new career as a corporate lawyer at $150,000 a year" from some third-tier toilet law school) but we're just discussing whether an MFE program is worth the price tag for a foreigner.

 

[RubyCFA]

Also, many domestic students don't really want to reallocation and thus attend local schools and look for local jobs. US definitely offers the best quant education overall, but there are students applying from all over the world. A bigger concern IMO is when a program has 80%+ Chinese just students. From my estimates NYU currently has 90% Chinese students. There is one US guy from NYU who put on his resume that he is US citizen. Kinda weird...

Yes! That is my concern as well. Judging by that my chances of acceptance are quite slim.

 

[TraderJoe]

You make a good point with regard to US students but the point with regard to foreign students still holds: Why would a Chinese or Indian student fork out, say, $60,000 if not for a crack at the US job market and a work visa? This money is not trivial for them. I'm convinced that in many cases they're being sold a bill of goods, under false pretences.

From the Bank's perspective, it is better for the Bank to wait until these MFE students return to India and then hire them for a $15 K salary in India to do the same job rather than to hire them at a $90 K salary in the USA. Of course, this strategy will not work for MFE grads from schools like Berkeley and Princeton because those guys are never going to have any problem getting jobs and visa sponsorship in the USA. However, for grads from the lower-ranked schools, it definitely makes more sense for the Bank to wait until they return to India and then hire them in India without having to spend $30 K on H1-B and Green Card with all the uncertainty and delays.

 

[CasanovaJ]

Ah, that's what we're discussing: the mirage of a new life. The Americans are also buying a mirage ("Start a new career as a corporate lawyer at $150,000 a year" from some third-tier toilet law school) but we're just discussing whether an MFE program is worth the price tag for a foreigner.

The question boils down to whether it's truly a "mirage" then, and I believe it depends almost entirely on the program... I have two friends who just finished Penn and Columbia law school, they're each first-year associates now, and are each making about ~$165k at reputable law firms in NYC and Philly... I have another friend who went to no-name, is making about $70k now for a one-man law firm in Delaware, and is freaking out about how he'll be in debt for the rest of his life. For MBA's, I have a cousin with an MBA from Wharton who's making well into the six figures at McKinsey, and my sister's boyfriend just went $140k in debt for an MBA from Fordham, can't find a job, and is pretty much screwed...

For quant finance the market has been depressed since the crisis, the ridiculous front-office jobs with the $500k bonuses are gone, the focus now seems to be much more on Risk, but there still seem to be plenty of people graduating from the top programs with pretty comfortable salaries... The problem in quant finance (and seemingly everywhere else for that matter) is the long list of crappy programs with horrible placement statistics that have been getting away with charging the exact same tuition as the small handful of programs that may actually be worth it.

 

[bigbadwolf]

For quant finance the market has been depressed since the crisis, the ridiculous front-office jobs with the $500k bonuses are gone, the focus now seems to be much more on Risk, but there still seem to be plenty of people graduating from the top programs with pretty comfortable salaries... The problem in quant finance (and seemingly everywhere else for that matter) is the long list of crappy programs with horrible placement statistics that have been getting away with charging the exact same tuition as the small handful of programs that may actually be worth it.

I agree. Which rather begs the question: Why are foreign students enrolling in these grossly overpriced crud programs? The post-2008 world is different and quant careers have become even more like careers for MBAs and JDs: winner-take-all for those from the leading programs and dicey and unattractive prospects for those from the crud programs (this was probably the case before 2008 as well but it's become even more accentuated).

 

[bigbadwolf]

From the Bank's perspective, it is better for the Bank to wait until these MFE students return to India and then hire them for a $15 K salary in India to do the same job rather than to hire them at a $90 K salary in the USA. Of course, this strategy will not work for MFE grads from schools like Berkeley and Princeton because those guys are never going to have any problem getting jobs and visa sponsorship in the USA. However, for grads from the lower-ranked schools, it definitely makes more sense for the Bank to wait until they return to India and then hire them in India without having to spend $30 K on H1-B and Green Card with all the uncertainty and delays.

That's what I would do as an employer.

 

[PrakharT]

I agree. Which rather begs the question: Why are foreign students enrolling in these grossly overpriced crud programs?

The answer is simple: Because they get placements, even if they are not from top schools, they get it somehow. The only difference is they might get it a l'il late.

That's what I would do as an employer.

Banks don't do it because if they do, then these MFE programs would start shutting down and US will not make billions of dollars which it is making right now!

 

[Jedison]

So here's a question I've been wondering for a while. What kind of advantage is it being american in one of these programs? Speaking perfect english and being generally sociable? If employment rates were limited to these students how would they compare? My gut feeling is that you're significantly more marketable. Having been in some of Columbia's stat and mathfin classes the ratio of foreign students, or even just Chinese students to everyone else is shocking. Realistically around 95%. It seems like domestic students would have a much easier time standing out to employers but I'd love some input.