Large Number of International Students in MFE Programs

[Sailor Sam]

Then instead of doing an MFE, what do Americans with quant skills end up doing? I've heard it is very difficult to get into a quantitative position without an MFE/PhD, so going straight from Undergrad is out of the question. Do many of them do Masters in a different field, say Stats/Math/Finance/Engineering?

 

[bigbadwolf]

... My gut feeling is that you're significantly more marketable. Having been in some of Columbia's stat and mathfin classes the ratio of foreign students, or even just Chinese students to everyone else is shocking. Realistically around 95%. It seems like domestic students would have a much easier time standing out to employers but I'd love some input.

Without the shadow of a doubt. Skill at language and socialising counts. Skill at translating technical ideas, technical results, and computer code into idiomatic explanations counts. In addition my conviction is that (relatively) poor language skill among foreign students is an impediment to fully understanding technical ideas (though I'll probably get flak for this).

 

[CandyOates]

I spoke with various programs about their employment statistics and they all said, "You should have nothing to worry about." Why? Because, as an American, I'm fluent in English and company's don't have to sponsor any work visas for me. There are also, apparently, growing opportunities in the US Government (bleh) that are available only to US Citizens which, as indicated by the mere existence of this thread, are rare in this field.

On a side note, if I recall correctly, NYU's 2013 full-time cohort has 4 US citizens. I'm a US citizen and I'm starting there in the fall.

Other's may disagree with this, but one of the reasons US citizens may be less likely to pursue MFE degrees is that they're unaware of them. I didn't know they existed until last Fall. It's possible that Chinese schools do a better job of advertising Quant work as an attractive work option than American schools... or perhaps my school, not offering an MFE degree and having no business school, was simply not inclined to advertise for other schools programs with the preference that you stay for a PhD.

 

[CasanovaJ]

The answer is simple: Because they get placements, even if they are not from top schools, they get it somehow. The only difference is they might get it a l'il late.

Oh? Show me a single second-tier (or lower) MFE program that releases detailed placement statistics.

Banks don't do it because if they do, then these MFE programs would start shutting down and US will not make billions of dollars which it is making right now!

You think banks give a da** about universities' bottom lines?

I agree. Which rather begs the question: Why are foreign students enrolling in these grossly overpriced crud programs? The post-2008 world is different and quant careers have become even more like careers for MBAs and JDs: winner-take-all for those from the leading programs and dicey and unattractive prospects for those from the crud programs (this was probably the case before 2008 as well but it's become even more accentuated).

Cuz they're idiots perhaps?... See above.

 

[PrakharT]

You think banks give a da** about universities' bottom lines?

Dude.. the system must be interconnected.. Government ease issuance of H1 visa because that attracts students into US universities, which in turn generate revenue for the government. Companies are willing to spend $30k for H1 as compared to offering jobs to US citizens who often demand greater salary.. Banks easily cover this cost

 

[CasanovaJ]

Dude.. the system must be interconnected.. Government ease issuance of H1 visa because that attracts students into US universities, which in turn generate revenue for the government. Companies are willing to spend $30k for H1 as compared to offering jobs to US citizens who often demand greater salary.. Banks easily cover this cost

You've over-thought this, and don't know what you're talking about... if Rutgers all of a sudden had to shut down its cash-cow MQF program because its applicants decided it was a total ripoff, I guarantee you the banks wouldn't care... And the industry demand is for domestic applicants, not foreign, specifically because of the visa issue... If the banks could avoid having to sponsor foreigners for visas, they would-- for the time being they just flat-out can't because of the severe shortage of Americans going into STEM fields.

 

[Jedison]

Dude.. the system must be interconnected.. Government ease issuance of H1 visa because that attracts students into US universities, which in turn generate revenue for the government. Companies are willing to spend $30k for H1 as compared to offering jobs to US citizens who often demand greater salary.. Banks easily cover this cost

Correlation doesn't imply causation

 

[IntoDarkness]

dats why he only got into uiuc and smu

 

[Jedison]

dats why he only got into uiuc and smu

Let's keep it classy on the forums

 

[TraderJoe]

Well, the advantage of being American is very obvious in the lower-ranked programs. 95% of the jobs which are advertised will tell people not to apply for the jobs if they need visa sponsorship. They will only take applications from Americans. So 90% of the jobs will only want to hire the 10% of the MFE students who are Americans. So the American MFE students can go to the lowest-ranked program and all the companies will still be fighting to hire them. Whereas the international students who are 90% of the MFE students from the lower-ranked MFE programs will be heading back to India to do the same job as the American students but for a $15 K salary instead of a $90 K salary. Note that this does not apply to the MFE students from schools like Berkeley and Princeton because they are never going to have any problems in getting visa sponsorship in the USA.

 

[CandyOates]

@TraderJoe, where did you get this information from? If it's anecdotal, what experiences do you have that have exposed you to these trends? (Not to be a doubter, just curious.)

 

[Andy Nguyen]

This is a very interesting discussion because the applicant pool for MFE programs has been evolving for years. We used to have a lot more Indian applicants back in the 2006 period. The number of applicants from China is now majority of the pool. Consequently they will make up the majority of the incoming cohort of most programs.
I also had a chance to talk to a few program directors and they all desire to attract more domestic students for various reasons, diversity is part of it. They probably will do outreach campaign to the undergrad population who are already doing STEM degrees.
Given the size of the Chinese undergrad population who has the requirement to do MFE program, it is easy to understand why we have many of them applying. It's also because that finance is considered prestigious career in their country and there is no better badge of success than having a job on Wall Street.
If you are a domestic student who are good with math and programming, there are a lot of other options. You can start your own business (aka starting another Facebook, Twitter, etc), join Google, go straight for an analyst position on Wall Street.
I guess a lot of them coming out of undergrad with a sizable student loan and the last thing in their mind is to get another 100K student loan to go to a master program. So they can just go work for a few years and get their employers to pay for a part-time degree. You would see them in many NYC-based programs studying at Baruch, NYU, etc.

 

[TraderJoe]

Well I did my MFE. So I saw at least one hundred jobs which were advertised. Like I said, 90% of the jobs tell people explicitly not to apply if they need visa sponsorship. I also saw that every single one of the American students got a good job whereas most of the international students had to go back to their home countries. You can easily contact MFE students who are currently completing the MFE program and they will tell you the same thing. The only exception is the schools like Berkeley and Princeton where everyone will get a good job regardless of whether they are American or International students who need visa sponsorship.
I am not surprised to learn that an American student at NYU-Courant is displaying on the top of his resume that he is an American citizen. That seems to be the correct thing to do based on my experience.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I am not surprised to learn that an American student at NYU-Courant is displaying on the top of his resume that he is an American citizen. That seems to be the correct thing to do based on my experience.

Sponsoring a foreigner is a hassle in terms of time and money, it implies a commitment, and it's dicey in that the sponsored employee might not work out. So why do it? For a Princeton or Berkeley graduate, the bet is safer as the student has already been vetted by a selective program. See it from an employer's stance: Why should he sponsor a Chinese graduate who can't speak proper English, might not fit in, and has a dubious FE degree from Swampwater University? Conversely, it would be daft for an American applicant to not advertise that fact: it makes hiring and firing easier and cheaper, and indicates a fluency with the language. Ceteris paribus, the American candidate is a shoo-in.

What the bum programs are mendaciously (but tacitly) selling to foreign students is that their credential will make the foreign student more palatable to US employers.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

This question must be asked then, if you are an international student from a developing country, what are your options for a more upward career mobility?
Put yourself in the shoes of a Chinese applicant and I think you can understand the attractiveness of doing such an MFE degree, arguably less so now than 10 years ago.

 

[bigbadwolf]

This question must be asked then, if you are an international student from a developing country, what are your options for a more upward career mobility?

If I were a young person (regardless of passport -- Chinese, US, whatever), I'd try to get admitted to a European university. They're either free or near-free (Germany has recently abolished its modest student fees, which only lasted a few years). The pox on the US brand names -- they're too expensive, poor value for money, and the experience is too stressful at the employment stage ("many are called, few are chosen"). But let's suppose that inexplicably I had my heart set on the USA. Then I'd either try to get admitted into a leading program (CMU, Berkeley, etc.) or abandon my efforts. The "expected value" of a credential from the plethora of bum programs out there is just too unappealing.

 

[Ken Abbott]

So the American MFE students can go to the lowest-ranked program and all the companies will still be fighting to hire them. Whereas the international students who are 90% of the MFE students from the lower-ranked MFE programs will be heading back to India to do the same job as the American students but for a $15 K salary instead of a $90 K salary.

These statements are false.

 

[CasanovaJ]

This question must be asked then, if you are an international student from a developing country, what are your options for a more upward career mobility?
Put yourself in the shoes of a Chinese applicant and I think you can understand the attractiveness of doing such an MFE degree, arguably less so now than 10 years ago.

My general point is that only the top programs are worth the cost anymore. I completely understand why Chinese applicants are interested in MFE programs (and I do sympathize), but if all I could get into was a subpar program that was going to result in a $100k liability for me and a one-way ticket back to China, I think my approach would be to just stay there a bit longer, develop my credentials, and then reapply to the programs that might actually result in my getting a job.

If I were a young person (regardless of passport -- Chinese, US, whatever), I'd try to get admitted to a European university. They're either free or near-free (Germany has recently abolished its modest student fees, which only lasted a few years). The pox on the US brand names -- they're too expensive, poor value for money, and the experience is too stressful at the employment stage ("many are called, few are chosen").

The US still has the best education system in the world... it's just extremely easy to get ripped off if you don't know how the system works (which tends to be the case with most things here, not just education).

Well I did my MFE. So I saw at least one hundred jobs which were advertised. Like I said, 90% of the jobs tell people explicitly not to apply if they need visa sponsorship. I also saw that every single one of the American students got a good job whereas most of the international students had to go back to their home countries. You can easily contact MFE students who are currently completing the MFE program and they will tell you the same thing. The only exception is the schools like Berkeley and Princeton where everyone will get a good job regardless of whether they are American or International students who need visa sponsorship.
I am not surprised to learn that an American student at NYU-Courant is displaying on the top of his resume that he is an American citizen. That seems to be the correct thing to do based on my experience.

Probably a topic for a different thread, but of the several hundred listings I've seen for quant jobs over the past several months (glassdoor, linkedin, efinancialcareers), while almost all of them tended to say something along the lines of "PhD or highly quantitative Masters required, C++ skills strongly preferred," I don't recall ever seeing one that explicitly said "US citizens only"... what listings are you looking at?

 

[TraderJoe]

Most of the job ads which are posted on the websites like efinancialcareers and monster, etc. are placed by recruiters who are fishing for resumes. I think probably most of those jobs may not even exist. When you are in the MFE program you will see the job ads which are posted by the career office. Those are all real job ads posted by companies who are interested in recruiting the MFE students. There is a vast difference between those job ads and what you see on the websites like efinancialcareers and monster. You should take the opinion of one stranger with a grain of salt and directly contact the MFE students who are graduating to get a more accurate picture. Some schools are good and post good career stats, but most MFE programs do not do this.

 

[m_ch]

When referring to ''international'' students, is there any distinction/differences to be pointed out for, say a Canadian vs. a Chinese student? Considering both do not have a visa.