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London vs. New York smackdown

Are there second-class citizens in UK ? A half-full British citizen with passport and not allowed to work ?
At least, in the US, anyone with a green card can work almost anywhere they want. The citizenship gives them the right to vote and work for federal government.
As far as Wall Street is concerned, a green card is as good as citizenship so for a long time, most people with GC doesn't bother applying for citizenship. Things changed after 9/11 and the ill-fated attempt to legalize undocumented people. People applied in droves to get the citizenship.

So I guess the US system is working as far as allowing people to work who want to work.

DominiConnor may be able to fill in some of the details better than I. The problem perhaps began in the 1970s, when Idi Amin in Uganda kicked out the Asians there (and the Kenyans did the same). Since most of these Asians held British passports ( a legacy from the colonial days), they came to Britain. The British weren't happy about it but accepted them with gritted teeth (the British PM at the time, Ted Heath, insisted a British passport had to mean something). When Thatcher came to power, she initiated a new "UK Nationality Act" (1981?), which effectively created different tiers of British citizenship (five, I think?). Four of the five -- which included most of the diasporan British citizens abroad (all non-white) were effectively stripped of their right of abode in the UK (which included right of work). So they're not even second-class citizens in the UK as they don't have right of abode. To me, they're little better than stateless people. Unlike the USA, where citizenship means uncontested right of entry, and of course ability to live and work in the US.

Important to realise that Europe is racist and xenophobic in a way the USA is not. The veneer may be polite, but it's there.

Some years back, the Germans were discussing their IT skills shortage and finally the government of the day proposed allowing in 20,000 skilled Indians on temporary work visas that wouldn't allow their families in, nor allow for permanent immigration status. Even this very limited proposal got nixed because the German public didn't want it.

GC allows one to live and work in the US but -- important but -- doesn't grant uncontested right of entry. Also, if one stays abroad for over six months, there may be a problem coming back if the immigration officer thinks the pattern of residency has been broken. In fact, even some people coming back within six months have had their GCs confiscated from them. Best to apply for citizenship as this problem then evaporates into thin air.
 
Nice posts, Dom and BigBadWolf
How ethnic diversity is London compared to NYC ? NYC is a melting pot and I think it has a big advantage over any city in term of making anyone feeling right at home. I heard that over a hundred of languages is spoken in NYC.

Is there any hostile attitude toward immigrants in London or Europe in general ? I read stories where Germany neo-nazi skinheads singled out Asians and their business. Seems like nationalism is running high there.
 
Nice posts, Dom and BigBadWolf
How ethnic diversity is London compared to NYC ? NYC is a melting pot and I think it has a big advantage over any city in term of making anyone feeling right at home. I heard that over a hundred of languages is spoken in NYC.

Is there any hostile attitude toward immigrants in London or Europe in general ? I read stories where Germany neo-nazi skinheads singled out Asians and their business. Seems like nationalism is running high there.

I can proffer my opinion -- doesn't mean I'm right. Big cities like London and Paris are quite "diverse." I don't know whether they're more or less diverse than NYC (where I only stayed for three months). Europe has a much higher population density than the US, with Southeast England and Holland having some of the highest densities in the world (highest is Hong Kong, I think). This makes for housing difficulties, among other things. And also an inability to avoid people one would rather stay away from (whihc is not a problem in the US). So this makes for a reluctance to accept immigrants. A second factor is that most of these countries (UK, France, Belgium, Holland, and even Germany to a modest extent) have been colonial powers, where European racial supremacy was taken as a given. And thirdly, the population of these countries has been ethnically stable for a long time: Brits, German, French, etc. have lived in their lands for millennia, unlike the USA, which is a new country. So a German is likely to think that Germany is his in a way that an American may not think of the USA. And hence this also makes for resistance to foreigners.

In the US, in contrast, there's always been more ambivalence to immigants. First is the recognition -- as pointed out by Jimmy Carter -- that all Americans are immigrants except the Red Indians (who have mostly been wiped out or confined to insignificant reservations). More difficult to be xenophobic if one's great-grandfather stepped off some boat onto Ellis Island a century ago. And there's more rootlessness in the US, which also works against xenophobia. In the UK, in contrast, 60% of Britons live within five miles of where they were born. More space in the US. A more fluid and dynamic society. For all these reasons, it's easier for an immigrant to blend in. The downside is the USA doesn't have a deep culture. But then again -- you win some, you lose some.

The skinheads reflect European problems. They're largely unskilled and jobless white youth who derive a sense of identity from their skinhead culture (which has nihilistic components) and their shared activities (which often include violence). Structural unemployment in Europe is a problem and skinheads are a corollary of this. The Europeans decided not to go the American route (i.e., creating millions of unskilled, low-paid McJobs) as a response to global economic competition, automation, and the drifting of jobs elsewhere. So growing underclasses exist in every European state. It's not so much that the skinheads are the problem for immigrants (which they obviously are ) but that they reflect in extreme form the attitude of European societies and states towards immigrants. Thus in Russia, the police seldom interfere in skinhead attacks against immigrants: they either don't turn up or turn a blind eye. To a lesser extent this is true in other European states as well. If the police and state authorities are not neutral (let alone being sympathetic to immigrants), this makes for a problem.

I don't know the stats now, but about fifteen years ago in England, an Asian university graduate had to apply to ten places to get one interview, whereas a white university graduate had to apply to four to get an interview. In a third of British companies, an Asian name on a resume was enough for the resume to go straight to the bin (unread). Blacks -- who usually have Christian names -- would often mistakenly be invited to interviews; once the interviewers saw the applicant was black, the interview would last all of five minutes.

Non-whites now constitute about 8-10% of the British population. But take a look at British army officers, judges, senior civil servants, senior executives, diplomats, etc. You can draw your own conclusions. Same in France. Same in Germany. Europe cannot absorb non-white people. And integration and assimilation are not on offer. I consider these to be simple statements of fact, not criticisms or moral judgements.
 
How ethnic diversity is London compared to NYC ?

It's a different mix, and very hard to call which is more diverse.
Banking is extremely diverse in London, turn up to a Wilmott finance focus, and you see more diversity than in most firms politically correct recruitment brochures.

London has more people from the Indian subcontinent, fewer people with African origins than NY. More Russians, Poles & French, about the same Italians. The Chinese tend to be HK/Sg rather than PRC or Taiwan.
Huge numbers of E.Europeans, (Russia, Poland, etc), typically the Russians are in banking and the higher end of organised crime, the Poles more in midskill jobs like plumbing and catering.
From the perspective of the most recent French presidential election, London was something like France's 4/5th largest city.

A big difference is that there is far greater mixing, and although there are areas with higher %s of a given group, they are a lot less defined and concentrated than NY.
London has a huge concentration of non-whites in the big cities, enough that during the 1970s, my brothers children thought that the coloured people they saw on the TV were dressing up, since we lived 30 miles from London. 30 miles in a different direction, the local bus company said it had no problems running a service over Christmas, but has real issues during Ramadan.

To some Americans. that is an important difference. There are now about the same number of Moslems attending prayers on a Friday as Protestant/Anglicans on a Sunday.
Since observant Christians are much older, and relatively few kids take it up, those who study this stuff expect Islam to become the single biggest religion in terms of observance in the UK, within 5 years, some claim it has already happened, since the Church of England has a serious ethic deficit and is widely believed to be lying about its numbers.
Of course, 60-70% of Brits call themselves Christians if asked (though that is going down as literacy rates improve), but they don't actually do anything about it.

Tony Blair was known to be a Christian, but when asked if he ever prayed with George Bush, flatly refused to answer. At another point where religion came up, not only did he refuse to talk about it, he sent his 2nd most important spin doctor to say "we don't do God", and again refuse to answer. As Blair said on the record when he left office "if you say you're a Christian, people think you're some kind of nutter".
He then became a Catholic...

One sad issue is that the greatest creator of well paid jobs in the world, is right next to the areas of London which are as poor as parts of E.Europe. These are mostly coloured and failed whites, enough that I've been working on a scheme to help suck the smart kids out.

Racist violence is of course a problem everywhere but a skinhead attacking Asians in Britain is taking a serious risk with his life, since they are very likely to fight back. Almost all murders of coloured people are by other coloured people, and no I'm not sure whether that counts as good or bad. In that sense it's like NY., except of course that you are quite literally 100 times less likely to be shot in London than NY.

The stats that Wolf cites are of course shameful, but a point has to be made, that the competition varies by subject. Kids with immigrant parents like I was are vastly more likely to do sciences, maths and engineering. If you look at kids studying languages or media studies they are mostly white and female. Some cohorts doing dimwit subjects are entirely white, a few are entirely white and female, though that "purity" is now very rare simply because more than twice as many people go to university now.
One top maths course ended up with no "home" students at all at one point.

There are however mixed results, most Asian/Chinese kids are rather more likely than white ones to achieve a given level of education, but some like Bangladeshis don't. Partly this is because they are "helped" more, ie low expectations and too much respect for their culture.

It's now the case that about 25% of British citizens have at least one parent not born there, and in London it is much higher, and if you include workers, not just citizens, higher still.
In London, it is mildly unusual to be served food or beer by a Brit.
There is a standard joke, true for many years:
Two Brits are abroad, and really don't get on with the local food, and long for what they eat at home.
But salvation is at hand, "an English restaurant !" they cry, and tuck in to a meal starting with poppadums, and moving on to a curry so hot it glows in the dark.
Such is the prevalence of Indian food in England that food innovations have actually started flowing back to India.

Wolf is right that senior state positions are all held by people who look and talk like me.
(so that's all right then). Although we have a nominally socialist party, it has fewer people in positions of power than the last Apartheid regime in S.Africa.
In another financial forum I got lots of shit for pointing out that British retail banking is run by racist morons. I've met them, if you ever want to refute the idea of white supremacy, meet a British retail banker.

But investment banking is not like this at all. I've been to many meetings at banks where the only bog standard white Brit there was me. Turn up at a Wilmott Finance Focus,
 
Who is keeping scores of this New York vs London smackdown ?
Here is a list of the list I got thus far

Cost of living:
London is way more expensive

Variety of food:
NYC has a big thumb up
London is infamous for its food but well know for its pub.

Immigration policy:

UK has a more defined immigration rule for prospective workers but road to citizenship is unknown.
US has a more defined road to citizenship from H1B

Ethnic diversity:
NYC

Financial job market:

Up to debate

So if offered comparable positions in London and NYC, what would be the incentives for someone to choose London over NYC ?
 
A few interesting articles offer views from both side. It definitely gets the attentions of people in NYC. I know Mayor. Bloomberg is working hard on this.

Will London Beat New York?
Financial Feud: New York Vs. London - News - MSNBC.com
Mind the Gap: New York vs. London

Here is some funny comparison in the last article
A libelous quick-reference guide to communication differences between Brits & Americans

A quick brainstorm with some of my American colleagues generated the following – unforgivably general – perspectives. We hope this won’t drive you to litigation (if you’re American) or to need a nice cup of tea and a sit down (if you’re British).

  • Americans focus on solutions, Brits on problems - conversely: Americans arenaive, Brits pragmatic.
  • Americans are direct (coarse, possibly crass) and Brits are indirect (dissembling, perhaps bumbling)
  • Americans like a little cheerleading (encouragement) and Brits like a little discernment (whinge). (Note: whinge is a British specialty, a low-grade form of constant complaining.)
  • Americans say "I" but mean "we". Brits say "we" but mean "I."
  • Americans respect authority, until they choose to mock it. Brits mock authority until they choose to respect it.
  • News in America is on television. In Britain it’s in the papers.
  • New in America strives to be objective and separate fact from opinion. In Britain we don’t even pretend we can be objective and often state where our bias is from.
  • Americans are PC on the outside, and perverts on the inside. Brits are just perverts all the time.
  • In the US, winning is everything. In the UK, fairness.
  • Americans are eager to take credit, Brits to avoid blame.
  • Americans see success & wealth and believe that they could attain the same; Brits see it and resent the person who has it and question whether they deserve it
  • Americans value the ability to say it straight to your face; Brits value avoiding conflict, discomfort and a bad feeling (then do it behind your back)
  • Americans big it up ; Brits play it down, or put another way Americans brag; Brits self deprecate
 
From http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aF8RPQXK.UZ0&refer=home
Prime Minister Gordon Brown, responding to unions and Labour Party lawmakers, is eliminating rules that let foreigners avoid taxes on income from abroad. While the plan will extract the most from millionaires, it may make life in Britain unaffordable for people like Stone who rely on overseas investment income to pay their bills.
Foreigners who have lived in Britain for more than seven years and claim their tax home is elsewhere must declare and pay taxes on their global income beginning April 6. To avoid doing so, they will have to pay a 30,000-pound ($60,000) annual fee.
The government estimates that about 3,000 people will leave Britain because of the new rules.
``It won't take many to leave for the amount the Treasury loses to exceed the amount they will gain from those staying and paying,'' said Keevil, 61. He blames ``the politics of envy'' for the notion that foreigners evade taxes.
Confusion over the rules is blunting London's attractiveness as a place to settle and do business, said David Treitel, a tax director at U.S. Tax & Financial, a London-based accounting firm.
Almost in cue, the US has announced that it will extend the OPT period from 12 moths to 29 months which in effect allows international students more than 2 years to work and find visa after graduation. This is interesting in the context of this thread.
 
opt->gc

If you have a PhD then it is is entirely possible to go from OPT to EB1 greencard within 2 years, so you can sidestep the H1 visa fiasco altogether. This OPT extension is fantastic.
 
$60K equates to the tax on (about) a $160K income, and so it's still a good deal, and of course there are lots of loopholes.
But the confusion is not helping London's position one little bit.
Brown is very unlikely to stay PM long enough for this measure to really cut in.

Increasing the length of time highly educated Americans can stay is of course a good move.
But I hear nothing about reigning in the Creationists at Homeland Security, so there are further improvements to be made.
 
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