The current job market for quants

[bootstrap]

I just want to pose this question to people out there who are working as quants on both the sell- and buy-side. What is the job market like now, really?

I keep hearing stories about how bad the market is and that a lot of buy-side firms have cut back on hiring. Does that apply to all areas of quantitative finance? Is there any bright spots in the hiring landscape?

Also, is the seeming down market cyclical (high interest rates and slowing economy) or structural (supply of quants >> demand of quants)?

Many thanks!

 

[_quanty_]

I just want to pose this question to people out there who are working as quants on both the sell- and buy-side. What is the job market like now, really?

I keep hearing stories about how bad the market is and that a lot of buy-side firms have cut back on hiring. Does that apply to all areas of quantitative finance? Is there any bright spots in the hiring landscape?

Also, is the seeming down market cyclical (high interest rates and slowing economy) or structural (supply of quants >> demand of quants)?

Many thanks!

It's cyclical. And unfortunately you're right, we're in a bit of a slump right now. I know people who have applied to 150+ full time jobs with great internships on their resume and have yet to find success. But I also know people who have found quant internships in both buy and sell side in trading, risk, and research. So while it's slower than usual, it's not dead. Maybe internship hiring is faring better than full time hiring right now.

Just to point out how cyclical it is, I recently spoke to someone who was applying to full time jobs last summer and had 6 offers! She ended up at a well known trading firm.

I'm currently at CMU MSCF with a buy side internship, and was wondering what the long term job market for quants looked like before I came here. In my experience, it's strong! Cycles are felt strongly in the world of finance, but if you can bear through them you'll do well.

 

[QuantCoach]

Currently work in a buyside firm so have some insight on recruiting. There are a lot of contributing factors to the current state of the job market:
1. Many prop trading firms are not having the best performance this year, especially compared to what profits were in the previous few years
2. Because of the success of a lot of these firms during the covid years, they expanded pretty quickly and many had one of their biggest intern classes this year. Most of the full time spots are dedicated to returning interns.
3. It's just more EV less variance to hire from returning interns since we have more sample points of how they will perform
4. Most MFE students are international. They'd have to make an exceptional case of why we want to sponsor them when we can just get people from the best local universities (HYPSM etc.)

Based on what my connections to the current MFE class (Baruch, CMU, etc.), people are finding it very hard to get full time offers that are not intern return offers. They're also finding it especially hard to break in the buyside.

 

[bootstrap]

Currently work in a buyside firm so have some insight on recruiting. There are a lot of contributing factors to the current state of the job market:
1. Many prop trading firms are not having the best performance this year, especially compared to what profits were in the previous few years
2. Because of the success of a lot of these firms during the covid years, they expanded pretty quickly and many had one of their biggest intern classes this year. Most of the full time spots are dedicated to returning interns.
3. It's just more EV less variance to hire from returning interns since we have more sample points of how they will perform
4. Most MFE students are international. They'd have to make an exceptional case of why we want to sponsor them when we can just get people from the best local universities (HYPSM etc.)

Based on what my connections to the current MFE class (Baruch, CMU, etc.), people are finding it very hard to get full time offers that are not intern return offers. They're also finding it especially hard to break in the buyside.

Thanks for the excellent insights!

In this case, would you think doing a MFE as an international is still a good pathway to a quant job on the buyside? I am Canadian so visa sponsorship might be a tad easier to arrange. But I also get your point that MFE grads will have to engage in fierce competition with local talent from HYPSM.

I guess my question boils down to whether the demand for quant talent will continue to expand fast enough to outpace the combined supply from MFEs + HYPSM? Thank you so much!

 

[bootstrap]

bump.

It was half a year ago when I asked this question. I am just wondering if the market has improved.....

I have just been accepted into NYU Courant, where I will most likely do my MFE studies. But to be honest, I still feel fairly disturbed by the state of the markets and a part of me can't help but think whether the very expensive tuition is worth it in this particular market, where jobs just aren't easy to come by.

 

[Paul Lopez]

You'll get plenty of opportunities. It will really be up to you to shine in the interviews and beat out the other people trying to get the spot.

 

[bootstrap]

You'll get plenty of opportunities. It will really be up to you to shine in the interviews and beat out the other people trying to get the spot.

Thanks for your insights Paul!

I understand where you are coming from. The best people will always get what they want.

But my impression is that in a bad market you'd need to be in the top 5% to get a good job whereas in a good market being in the top 25% would make the cut already. I am much more confident in achieving the latter than the former lol.

 

[QuantCoach]

Don’t think there’s much point worrying about state of the job market. You can’t control how good the job market is but you can control how good you are. If you are still curious then from what I observed the difficulty of getting into JS/Citadel/etc. doesn’t seem to have changed much from past years but banks seem to have cut down on hiring.

Also there isn’t as much opportunity as u may think (if you’re only aiming for the best jobs). I found getting the interviews almost as difficult as passing them.

 

[bootstrap]

Don’t think there’s much point worrying about state of the job market. You can’t control how good the job market is but you can control how good you are. If you are still curious then from what I observed the difficulty of getting into JS/Citadel/etc. doesn’t seem to have changed much from past years but banks seem to have cut down on hiring.

Also there isn’t as much opportunity as u may think (if you’re only aiming for the best jobs). I found getting the interviews almost as difficult as passing them.

Hi Coach, thanks a lot for your input!

Honestly, while I would welcome a cidatel/JS opportunity with wide open arms, I really do not expect to get into those lol.

I am just concerned that the more run of the mill, decent and solid opportunities (the ones that pay 150k starting, say) are also drying up.

My hope is that I can identify some pockets of active hiring in this bad market (be it AI or whatever) and then utilize my firepower mostly on those.

 

[escheffer]

Currently work in a buyside firm so have some insight on recruiting. There are a lot of contributing factors to the current state of the job market:
1. Many prop trading firms are not having the best performance this year, especially compared to what profits were in the previous few years
2. Because of the success of a lot of these firms during the covid years, they expanded pretty quickly and many had one of their biggest intern classes this year. Most of the full time spots are dedicated to returning interns.
3. It's just more EV less variance to hire from returning interns since we have more sample points of how they will perform
4. Most MFE students are international. They'd have to make an exceptional case of why we want to sponsor them when we can just get people from the best local universities (HYPSM etc.)

Based on what my connections to the current MFE class (Baruch, CMU, etc.), people are finding it very hard to get full time offers that are not intern return offers. They're also finding it especially hard to break in the buyside.

That makes sense! What is the latest case you sponsored an International student? Could you give an example of an “exceptional case”? Thank you!

 

[ExoticArb]

Hi Coach, thanks a lot for your input!

Honestly, while I would welcome a cidatel/JS opportunity with wide open arms, I really do not expect to get into those lol.

I am just concerned that the more run of the mill, decent and solid opportunities (the ones that pay 150k starting, say) are also drying up.

My hope is that I can identify some pockets of active hiring in this bad market (be it AI or whatever) and then utilize my firepower mostly on those.

I think you'll be ok as long as you start networking and preparing for interviews right away (and invest a lot of time into both). I know a good amount of people from my class who graduated with good jobs, and I also know a good amount of people who graduated and are still looking (including myself).

 

[bootstrap]

I think you'll be ok as long as you start networking and preparing for interviews right away (and invest a lot of time into both). I know a good amount of people from my class who graduated with good jobs, and I also know a good amount of people who graduated and are still looking (including myself).

Thank you very much for the insights! And I wish you the best of luck with your search.

I might be pushing my luck here, but would you care to share a little more about the current hiring landscape? More specifically, which areas in quant finance are you seeing relative more demand for MFE grads? Thanks!

 

[ExoticArb]

Always happy to answer any questions people may have. To be honest though, I'm not seeing any areas which have notably more demand than others as the classmates I have who got jobs seem to be in all different places. I typed up the below as background on me/what I'm targeting plus some stats so that maybe you can compare your experiences to mine for the path you want to take:

Background:
Undergraduate: Tufts - Quantitative Econ and Applied Math majors, Astrophysics minor; GPA: 3.72/4
Graduate: Columbia - Financial Engineering; GPA: 3.56/4

Experience:
After undergrad: ~1 yr in Real Estate debt, ~2.5 yrs in Real Estate asset management
During graduate: Summer NLP research project, fall internship at a startup

Networking:
Number of messages: 924
Message Type: LinkedIn connection request then message, LinkedIn Inmail, cold email, warm email
Note: I know people have had success with networking so I would recommend it but I personally haven't gotten any interviews from it. I have also done in-person networking at conferences and with people I know.

Applications:
Number of apps: 325 (applied through: job boards, company websites, referrals, recruiters)
Types of firms: hedge funds, prop trading, bulge bracket, PE, insurance, research firms, rating agencies
Pre-interview tests failed: 2 (one prop trading and one quant hedge fund)
Firms interviewed with: 4
Positions of the interviews: quantitative equity research @ research firm (6 rounds then never heard back), portfolio construction @ large PE fund (ongoing, just had 4th round), derivatives analyst @ insurance company's asset management arm (ongoing, just had 5th round), debt markets analyst @ bulge bracket (ongoing, just had 1st round)
How I got the interviews: 1 - Applied on LinkedIn (quant equity research), 1 - Applied on company site (debt markets analyst), 2 - Recruiter (portfolio construction analyst and derivatives analyst)
Rejections w/o interview or test: 47


Hopefully that's helpful overall but please let me know if I can provide any more information. Always happy to answer questions or help in any way I can!

 

[bootstrap]

Always happy to answer any questions people may have. To be honest though, I'm not seeing any areas which have notably more demand than others as the classmates I have who got jobs seem to be in all different places. I typed up the below as background on me/what I'm targeting plus some stats so that maybe you can compare your experiences to mine for the path you want to take:

Background:
Undergraduate: Tufts - Quantitative Econ and Applied Math majors, Astrophysics minor; GPA: 3.72/4
Graduate: Columbia - Financial Engineering; GPA: 3.56/4

Experience:
After undergrad: ~1 yr in Real Estate debt, ~2.5 yrs in Real Estate asset management
During graduate: Summer NLP research project, fall internship at a startup

Networking:
Number of messages: 924
Message Type: LinkedIn connection request then message, LinkedIn Inmail, cold email, warm email
Note: I know people have had success with networking so I would recommend it but I personally haven't gotten any interviews from it. I have also done in-person networking at conferences and with people I know.

Applications:
Number of apps: 325 (applied through: job boards, company websites, referrals, recruiters)
Types of firms: hedge funds, prop trading, bulge bracket, PE, insurance, research firms, rating agencies
Pre-interview tests failed: 2 (one prop trading and one quant hedge fund)
Firms interviewed with: 4
Positions of the interviews: quantitative equity research @ research firm (6 rounds then never heard back), portfolio construction @ large PE fund (ongoing, just had 4th round), derivatives analyst @ insurance company's asset management arm (ongoing, just had 5th round), debt markets analyst @ bulge bracket (ongoing, just had 1st round)
How I got the interviews: 1 - Applied on LinkedIn (quant equity research), 1 - Applied on company site (debt markets analyst), 2 - Recruiter (portfolio construction analyst and derivatives analyst)
Rejections w/o interview or test: 47


Hopefully that's helpful overall but please let me know if I can provide any more information. Always happy to answer questions or help in any way I can!

Thank you so much for being extremely generous with sharing your own experience with us!

You are from a top 5 program with a decent profile. You also did your fair share of networking. I can only conclude that the market still isn't at its best shape at the moment.

I am just wondering .... based on your experience with interviews, may I ask which ones of the following do you feel that hiring managers put most emphasis on? Thank you so much!

- probability & stats
- linear algebra
- C++
- Python
- machine learning & deep learning
- PDEs & stochastic calculus & options pricing

 

[ExoticArb]

Thank you so much for being extremely generous with sharing your own experience with us!

You are from a top 5 program with a decent profile. You also did your fair share of networking. I can only conclude that the market still isn't at its best shape at the moment.

I am just wondering .... based on your experience with interviews, may I ask which ones of the following do you feel that hiring managers put most emphasis on? Thank you so much!

- probability & stats
- linear algebra
- C++
- Python
- machine learning & deep learning
- PDEs & stochastic calculus & options pricing

From what I've heard from others as well, the market isn't in the best shape, but I always hesitate to say things like that purely off of my own experiences because it's always possible I'm just doing some things wrong.

Your question is a bit tough to answer because I think it really depends on the roles you're applying for. I haven't gotten any ML or Deep Learning questions, nor have I gotten any C++ questions, but that's just because I haven't been applying to anything with those types of skills in the job descriptions.

Based on my experiences, probability/stats and linear algebra questions have most often come during the online assessment piece of the interview, though I have gotten some stats questions from interviewers like calculating vol or when to use linear regression.

Python is very important, but the roles I've been applying to haven't been very tech heavy and so I've mostly had Python questions during the online assessment portion instead of live coding. However, I did have one interviewer who asked me about things like Big O, Python's Global Interpreter Lock, why Pandas is faster than traditional Python structures, and things of that nature. I've also been asked general Python questions as an expansion upon some things listed in my resume and have been asked two different times about how to calculate max drawdown when you have a time series of prices. If you can learn it a bit, I would also recommend putting some time into SQL as this is often in job descriptions and asked a bit in interviews.

PDEs and stochastic calculus have most often come during the online assessments and I had to do a PDE numerical solution for a take-home coding test, but I have been asked often about options because of the derivatives analyst position I've been interviewing for. Questions like what the total delta of a given portfolio is, how delta, gamma, and vega change in a specific portfolio over time, how delta changes when a piece of the Black Scholes model changes, etc.

You didn't mention this, but bond pricing, duration, and convexity have interestingly come up fairly often. In general though I think the questions will mainly be a reflection of the role you're interviewing for instead of being given the same questions no matter what you applied to.