Why is there a lot of international students pursuing mfe?

[AWilliams]

Mike Tyson was pretty funny in Hangover though!

I always wonder why grade school teachers are paid so little, considering that they are the first line of folks who can change the thoughts of those impressionable young minds. I do think a lot of capable folks want to teach but simply can't since you can't support a family on that kind of salary (my fiance's mom is a HS teacher, and she makes scrap). I think if you fix that underlying problem (just one of many), tangible improvements will be seen.

Yeah well income is really just determined by supply and demand. But since they work in public school, there's no real way to measure their true value. It's not as if grade school is offered freely as a choice like buying an xbox is...

 

[Forza]

Maybe I should have worded that a little differently. What I was trying to say is that I think it is wrong for them to be paid so little.

 

[AWilliams]

Maybe I should have worded that a little differently. What I was trying to say is that I think it is wrong for them to be paid so little.

How do you know it's wrong?

 

[Forza]

I just think they should be paid a little more based on the importance of their work.

 

[atreides]

If you look at profiles of students in hard science (math/CS/physics/etc) grad programs across the US, you will see the same thing. I don't think MFE is something different here.

See the attached document.. some numbers from NSF on US international student population/concentrations.

I still don't understand why the numbers are so skewed once it comes to graduate populations in top 10 - 20 engineering, math, physics or cs schools/ departments. Americans that want to pursue STEM graduate degrees have a variety of funding sources from the likes of DoD, DoE, NSF, NIH, EPA, and a bunch of other " three letter acronym" organizations. (I know people on fellowships from the listed organizations). Keep in mind that these fellowships sometimes pay two to three times what normal graduate fellowships pay.

If the money is there for the taking, why don't more Americans/ minorities go the STEM route??

 

[bigbadwolf]

I still don't understand why the numbers are so skewed once it comes to graduate populations in top 10 - 20 engineering, math, physics or cs schools/ departments. Americans that want to pursue STEM graduate degrees have a variety of funding sources from the likes of DoD, DoE, NSF, NIH, EPA, and a bunch of other " three letter acronym" organizations. (I know people on fellowships from the listed organizations). Keep in mind that these fellowships sometimes pay two to three times what normal graduate fellowships pay.

If the money is there for the taking, why don't more Americans/ minorities go the STEM route??

Is there a sufficiently large body of American students with the relevant undergrad degrees to avail themselves of this funding? Assuming there is, are there career opportunities that siphon off a chunk of them (for instance in engineering and computing)?

 

[Tsotne]

If you look at profiles of students in hard science (math/CS/physics/etc) grad programs across the US, you will see the same thing. I don't think MFE is something different here.

One thing is clear. International students seek those opportunities abroad what they lack in domestic countries. I said some examples in above posts. CS, physics and math are well suited within that argument. I might go to US to studdy physics since it is impossible to studdy in Pakistan, India ... and countries which simply lack the adequate infrastructure. Again, not the only reason though...

 

[enthusiast]

Mike Tyson was pretty funny in Hangover though!

I always wonder why grade school teachers are paid so little, considering that they are the first line of folks who can change the thoughts of those impressionable young minds.

My mom was a high school teaher (outside the US) and made the scrappy salary. She did this for about 42 years. Yet we were comfortable. My dad ofcourse made more, but not huge deal more. She taught becasue thats what she wanted to do!

Back in 2001-2002, I made $12,000 a year and survived as a Student, all expeneses apart from tuition paid by working. Now Im work full time and make much more. My expenses now are also much greater than $12,000 a year. Funny how this happens. While I was making this $12,000 a year, I though if I land a job for $50,000 / year I will be able to save insane amount of money. But now my expenses have also gone up (by choice) and although I am able to save, I do not save as much as anicipated.

The point here is salaries are not the problem, the expenses and choices we make are (ala keeping up with the Jones'). This is an outsiders perspective (not having grown up here).

 

[Forza]

Trust me, my fiance's mom was definitely not trying to keep up with the Jones. Life was just a little harder, especially trying to put their daughter through college.

If you have dual income, you can get by life just fine (and of course living within your means). But imagine a single parent trying to raise a family of 3 living in NY with a teacher's salary - that's not a fun thing to do. I still think salary is a hindrance to the system, not for all teachers of course, but for a certain percentage.

On another note, I do appreciate the candid and thought provoking posts of the members here. It is through things like this that we continue to grow and learn.

 

[AWilliams]

Trust me, my fiance's mom was definitely not trying to keep up with the Jones. Life was just a little harder, especially trying to put their daughter through college.

If you have dual income, you can get by life just fine (and of course living within your means). But imagine a single parent trying to raise a family of 3 living in NY with a teacher's salary - that's not a fun thing to do. I still think salary is a hindrance, not for all teachers of course, but for a certain percentage.

What's so special about high school teachers that you think they should make more money; anything other then some arbitrary sentiment about how important their work is? You can basically use that rationale with a host of other professions, none of which have the benefit of six months time off in the summer like teachers enjoy.

If anything, I would blame the public school system as a whole for failing to do their jobs. And lets not pretend that someone sat down, thought of the best possible way to teach young people, came up with this system, then offered it freely as a choice. Education you see now is just the cheapest way to do it which is superimposed on everyone by the government. In the age where my phone can play me in chess and talk to me, schools has not changed in America since the mid 19th century, but you think they should continue to earn more money?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

At least you can't fault anyone choosing a teaching career as money hungry like many who enter the finance career. At least they genuinely love to teach and care about other people.

 

[Forza]

Alright dude, I am not saying the system is doing anything right. In fact, if you read my other comments before that, is that, yes the system is broke, and Americans are not trained properly on a lot of subjects (and that's why all the technical fields are dominated by international students). I am not arguing or presenting a point different from yours.

I am simply saying, one way perhaps to fix the system is to put a little bit of incentive into the teaching career field, so you can have brighter and more educated folks go be teachers and improve our system overall. It is after all, one way to attract talent. Is pay the end all fix, no, of course not and never will be. You will always have folks like enthusiast and my finace's mothers like do it for the love of teaching, but pay is a factor in job consideration.

And yes, it is definitely an arbitrary sentiment of mine. I am not saying it is right or wrong (or your views for that matter), but just simply my observation.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

I am simply saying, one way perhaps to fix the system is to put a little bit of incentive into the teaching career field, so you can have brighter and more educated folks go be teachers and improve our system overall. It is after all, one way to attract talent.

You haven't heard about the public school system in Scarsdale, in Westchester County, NY. Parents pay through the nose with property taxes which a large chunks go back to the school system. It's one of the wealthiest zipcode in the country and the teacher salary is 6 figure. You can't replicate this to the rest of the country but a high paying teaching job is out there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/nyregion/05weteac.html

 

[Forza]

Great article - with higher pay, you do attract better talent and result in a better educational environment.

"Our taxes are high, but our education is superior," said Ellen Cohen, 53, who has a daughter at Scarsdale High School. "It doesn't bother me that teachers do so well."

"In May, Scarsdale's school budget passed without controversy, and by 73 percent, even more overwhelmingly than the year before. The school board president, Jeff Samuelson, believes there is a consensus in his community to attract and pay for the best teachers."

 

[bigbadwolf]

You haven't heard about the public school system in Scarsdale, in Westchester County, NY. Parents pay through the nose with property taxes which a large chunks go back to the school system. It's one of the wealthiest zipcode in the country and the teacher salary is 6 figure. You can't replicate this to the rest of the country but a high paying teaching job is out there.

As one teacher in the article points out, the relatively high pay is more than cancelled out by the high cost of living in such areas ($1.4m for the average property). The mass media keeps trumpeting 6-figure salaries as being upper-middle-class but I don't think $100,000 falls into that category on the East and West Coast -- maybe something around $200,000 does. In addition, for such plum jobs, many are called but few are chosen. Where the job openings mostly exist is high-stress inner-city areas, which have a high level of teacher attrition.

It's not necessarily the pay that is keeping talent away (though it may be one factor): it's the low social standing and the high level of stress. I don't know the figures now but a few years ago about 9% of new teachers were quitting within the first year of their initial contract.

I was a high school teacher myself; somehow I managed to last the full year but then quit. It's too stressful. I like teaching but that's the one thing I was mostly not doing. I was a glorified child minder -- with no power to control obstreperous teenagers yet somehow expected to do so. Along with a mountain of worthless paperwork. Coupled with aggressive and indifferent parents and administrators. It's important to realise the US school system -- particularly in urban areas -- is not designed so much to teach as to hold, confine, and control. In this system, the teacher is an underpaid and overstressed NCO who gets flak from every quarter and serves as a convenient scapegoat. In suburbia there's more teaching and fewer discipline problems -- but the jobs are fewer and attract more applicants, particularly from the front-line trenches of urban schools.

 

[alain]

What's so special about high school teachers that you think they should make more money; anything other then some arbitrary sentiment about how important their work is? You can basically use that rationale with a host of other professions, none of which have the benefit of six months time off in the summer like teachers enjoy.

2 months... I tend to agree with you on the rest but stepping on a school full of kids it's not an easy choice to make. Also, wait until you have kids. Your perception is going to change a lot.

 

[AWilliams]

2 months... I tend to agree with you on the rest but stepping on a school full of kids it's not an easy choice to make. Also, wait until you have kids. Your perception is going to change a lot.

We're really starting to move off topic with this discussion.

I agree with you that it isn't easy to step into a classroom full of kids. But in this era with the internet, why does that have to be the case? The school system has no real incentive to improve on any situation so I honestly can't sympathize with those who participate in it. If Microsoft was organized the same way, we would all still be using MS-DOS.

@Forza,
People have been making that argument for decades. Every study i'v read found little to no relationship between public school funding and educational quality/outcomes. A simple Google search should suffice.

 

[Forza]

Never intended to start out as an argument for anything (or at least I didn't intend it that way), it just started out as me talking out loud to add on to bigbadwolf's comments. But yes, of course we all know there are a lot more factors in play than just pay (some pointed out by others in this thread). I will skip the Google search and go eat dinner with my fiance's family instead.

 

[AWilliams]

Never intended to start out as an argument for anything (or at least I didn't intend it that way), it just started out as me talking out loud to add on to bigbadwolf's comments. But yes, of course we all know there are a lot more factors in play than just pay (some pointed out by others in this thread). I will skip the Google search and go eat dinner with my fiance's family instead.

Ah, by argument I don't mean a verbal fight, just a proposition.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Why are there more foreign students? I believe it was Amy Chua that wrote the article about Tiger Moms, and, unsurprisingly enough, the demographics break down similarly for piano students. IMO it's that foreign students are more driven to be robots in hard things (piano, engineering, etc...). Of course, this also does come with some insidious downsides:

A) they do exactly as trained. Aka they're human robots. They can do what you teach them perfectly--but truly come up with brilliant, independent, creative ideas? Not so much.

B) If the pressure gets high enough, they just break down. I remember in my IE 447 class at Lehigh, after the second exam, the professor gave us the chance to redo the whole damn thing open book because one girl just completely broke down. I just wanted a nap after the exam.

C) Language barrier. I don't care how smart you are with math. Ever tried to listen to an overseas student communicate? I'm not sure when I'm going to be in a position to hire, but from what I've heard speaking with these people, I'd rather hire an American who's finished the same program with worse grades than an overseas student with a massive language barrier in the way.

Now...another fact as to why there are more of them?

Because China has 5x the population of the US.

Think about it. Now that some of them have the $ to pursue an MFE, they want riches, so they go for that kind of thing.

Also, I'm not sure that so many American people actually want these kinds of quant jobs. Hell...I remember one of my high school classmates...blew me out of the water in math and physics (was one of the smartest people I've ever met at the time), beautiful as all hell, got into Columbia for a BS in Financial Engineering, and even managed to intern for an investment bank. Twice.

Unfortunately, the investment bank was Lehman Brothers, and when Wall Street went up in smoke, she went on the actuarial track, pricing life insurance policies (or so it seems from her LinkedIn).

And this girl was one of the brightest people in high school, period. Missed her at the 5 year reunion due to what I hypothesize to be a family tragedy, and, well...

One person (of Chinese descent) was pursuing a PhD in theoretical physics at MIT. I was the only one with a completed quantitative graduate degree. A couple of people got investment banking/other non-math financial industry positions, one person who pursued the same program as the aforementioned young woman and then went onto get an MFE at Columbia is now an assistant trader at SIG. Oh, there's one more who's working as an IE for the Navy, and I'm really happy for him.

Overall though, I don't think that Americans like math though. Period.

And the grad schools are making it hard to even pursue a graduate education in anything quantitative. Duke (PhD stats), UPenn (PhD biostats), and UMich (PhD Stats and PhD OR, two separate programs) all rejected me, and my credentials aren't horrid. 770 Q GREs, 3.81 MS Stats GPA...and nope...I got shafted. (Though two of my recommendations arrived late at UMich)...heck, even my own alma mater, Lehigh, rejected me after I applied to my old department for a PhD when I got my first 4.0 at Rutgers, and SUNY Stony Brook took me for a PhD in quant finance--but with no funding.

Frankly, I think a lot of this could be solved if US citizens were prioritized in PhD programs over foreign nationals. Given how few Americans actually like math or engineering, this may actually be a sensible course of policy to get our country back on track.