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Career advice needed badly

bigband

Joined
7/7/11
Messages
7
Points
11
My situation is an unusual and probably awkward one.

  • On the verge of completing a 2nd PhD in Math, one in Applied Math, one in Pure Math. Neither in a topic particularly relevant to Finance.
  • Decided to move on from academia and am looking around for potential careers. Quant finance is of great interest.
  • I know a lot of math, but little statistics.
  • No training in finance or economics. Have an interest in the financial industry, expressed through several years as a (successful, but small stakes) private investor, but I suspect that has little relevance.
  • Done some programming on a small scale in very high level languages as and when needed, either for work or personal projects.
  • No formal programming training beyond a single C++ programming course covering the basics.
  • No work experience, not even internships (the most painful point)
I'm smart, a very fast learner and I have a natural affinity for mathematics and the use of computers and math in problem solving. I also greatly enjoy such work. I'm confident I can acquire the knowledge required for the industry, but there's a lot of gaps to make up. So, related questions;

1. I'm assuming given my lack of background, I have pretty much no chance of getting a quant position at any level at this point in time. Correct?
2. I'm also assuming 1-2 months of part time self-study is not going to cut it to sufficiently fill in knowledge gaps. Correct? My plate is already very full completing my thesis and job hunting, so study time is going to be limited.
3. Any suggestions of an entry-level position I would actually stand a good chance of getting, and which would be a decent first step on the road to becoming a quant?

Any other suggestions or advice gratefully received!
 
This will be a tough case to crack because you will be perceived as overqualified for most entry level positions. Nobody will question your smartness and it's a given that you should be able to pick up the knowledge on the job quickly.
Majority of entry-level jobs entails doing things, not thinking of the next Black-Scholes. That means people expect you to come in and be able to code, work with database, fix the broken Excel models, that kind of work.

I don't know any recruiters who work with entry-level candidates so you are pretty much on your own now. Get the interview books, read Hull, relearn C++, get use to SQL, Python, R.
I hope these would help
http://www.quantnet.com/forum/threa...uants-mfe-financial-engineering-students.535/
http://www.quantnet.com/quant-internships-graduate-recruitment-list-firms/
 
Regarding question 1, I know a lot of Chinese math and physics PhD who got quant jobs right after they graduate. Make a nice linkedin page, you might get contacted by headhunters. Several of my friends got their jobs this way last year and early last year. I was also contacted by several headhunters after I posted my resume online, but I felt I wasn't ready...

By the way, this interview book, recommended in Andy's master reading book, is very good.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1438236662/

My friends also highly recommend the following: Derivatives Markets by McDonald, Stochastic Calculus by Shreve, C++ Design Patterns and Derivatives Pricing by Mark Joshi.
 
Andy Nguyen said:
This will be a tough case to crack because you will be perceived as overqualified for most entry level positions. Nobody will question your smartness and it's a given that you should be able to pick up the knowledge on the job quickly.
Majority of entry-level jobs entails doing things, not thinking of the next Black-Scholes. That means people expect you to come in and be able to code, work with database, fix the broken Excel models, that kind of work.

I don't know any recruiters who work with entry-level candidates so you are pretty much on your own now. Get the interview books, read Hull, relearn C++, get use to SQL, Python, R.
I hope these would help
http://www.quantnet.com/forum/threa...uants-mfe-financial-engineering-students.535/
http://www.quantnet.com/quant-internships-graduate-recruitment-list-firms/
Click to expand...

Hi Andy,

Although most entry-level positions are quant developers, there should still be some entry-level quant research positions for people like bigband, right?

Also, perhaps I am wrong, but I feel that quite a few headhunters are still interested in entry-level candidates (although headhunters are more interested in experienced hires).
 
Oh, definitely the kind of roles available are more various than the way I put it. I just said that having the technical skills to get in and contribute on day 1 is a sure way to break in for someone with no work experience, finance background like OP.
And as for the headhunters, I don't know any who will work with entry-level. Some even told me that banks will not pay them compensation for entry-level hires.
That explains why MFE grads from programs with less than robust career services have such a hard time to break in.
 
Andy Nguyen said:
Oh, definitely the kind of roles available are more various than the way I put it. I just said that having the technical skills to get in and contribute on day 1 is a sure way to break in for someone with no work experience, finance background like OP.
And as for the headhunters, I don't know any who will work with entry-level. Some even told me that banks will not pay them compensation for entry-level hires.
That explains why MFE grads from programs with less than robust career services have such a hard time to break in.
Click to expand...

Good to know. Thanks!
 
Thanks for the replies.

Any advice on how to distribute my limited study time? It sounds like my focus for now needs to be on the computer side of things, with finance I can get away with the basics, and for the math, in a pinch I can use the PhD as solid evidence I'll be able to pick up any necessary math I don't yet know. Fair comment?

Is it worth spending money for courses? I took an online C++ course for the certificate, but frankly I would have learned the material in about half the time by myself (time wasted on nearly pointless programming assignments it was difficult to motivate myself to do) and the instructor offered no extra insights. I'd rather self-study if possible, perhaps setting up a website with code samples to demonstrate proficiency, unless further formal qualifications will really help(?)

How receptive is the industry regarding age and previous experience? Would I be hurting myself badly if I went into a non-finance field for a year or two that allows me to gain experience with the technical skills?
 
If you don't mind my asking: Why not join an MFE program? They are very short (1-1.5 years), and with that under your belt you will most certainly get a quant internship and then...
 
I don't know how different it is with quants and actuaries, but when I was looking into actuarial internships the most important factor was whether or not you were currently in school. I am not sure why. They (many popular insurance companies) told me that even someone who was overqualified should go back to school and then reapply for an internship. Again, maybe quant is different..
 
MRoss said:
If you don't mind my asking: Why not join an MFE program? They are very short (1-1.5 years), and with that under your belt you will most certainly get a quant internship and then...
Click to expand...

Multiple reasons. In no particular order,

Cost. As an international student, I'd be hit with higher tuition, and the government would require me to show evidence of the entire cost of the program + living costs up front.

Slowing down the learning process. I've been in classroom environments a long time, specifically learning technical subjects. I have a very good handle on how much practice I need to do to understand and retain concepts, and it's less than would be required within a program.

If I were an employer looking at my resume, I'd be thinking "Can this guy even exist outside of a school environment?" Yet more school right now, even 1-1.5 years, makes that look even worse.

Personal reasons that require me to start working asap.

The sort of positions I'm aiming for, the employers seem much more interested in what you know than how you got that knowledge. The PhD should be sufficient to tick the "has pieces of paper" box. (I may be wrong about this one.) I'm sure I can find other ways to demonstrate knowledge.

The only significant benefit of an MFE I see *for me* is the connections. That's a huge benefit, of course, but I do not think it will be impossible to make good progress on these without being in a program. In any case, the Baruch program (the one I'd be most interested in) isn't accepting new students until Fall 2012. By that time I would expect to have much of the knowledge in place, so the value of the program to me personally would go down further.

I don't rule it out for the future, particularly picking up classes that seem useful rather than worrying about the certificate, but now it's time to make a start on a career.
 
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