Hope for a future democratic China

[Tigga]

China Urges Europeans to Snub Nobel Ceremony

China Urges Europeans to Boycott Nobel Ceremony - NYTimes.com

BEIJING — China is pressing European governments to boycott the ceremony awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to the Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo, warning that the award interferes in China’s internal affairs and that Mr. Liu is a criminal, Western diplomats said on Thursday.

Beijing also urged governments not to issue the statements of support and congratulation that are customary for Nobel laureates, they said.

The unusual request was delivered to European embassies in Oslo, the site of the award ceremony in December, in a written démarche, or diplomatic note, the highest level of communication between diplomatic outposts. How many embassies received the note was unclear.

Mr. Liu, a Beijing author and intellectual, was convicted of subversion and sentenced to 11 years in prison last year for his role in writing Charter 08, an Internet manifesto that calls for democratic reforms and an end to the Communist Party’s monopoly on power.

The police detained him shortly before the document was issued in December 2008, and he has remained in custody since. His wife, Liu Xia, is under constant guard in the couple’s Beijing apartment.

 

[koupparis]

This is laughable. I'd be interested to hear their motives for doing this. Do they think anyone will listen? Are they trying to prove a point (that they're a little delusional)? Of course we knew they'd disagree with the awarding, he is a criminal in their country. And how exactly does this interfere with their internal affairs? The fact that a renowned award, one which they've gladly accepted before, was bestowed upon one of it's citizens shouldn't matter whether he's a criminal or not. They never claimed it interfered with internal affairs before, did they?

 

[Tigga]

Calls for a ‘Jasmine Revolution’ in China Persist

BEIJING — A small but stubborn protest movement is continuing calls for demonstrations despite a campaign of arrests and censorship that underscores China’s concern over unrest and revolts in authoritarian countries in the Middle East and North Africa.

According to the Hong Kong-based Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy, three people were detained for “inciting subversion of state power” after they reposted calls for protests last weekend. The detentions could not be confirmed independently, but they follow roundups of scores of dissidents and rights lawyers. Some well-known lawyers who handle sensitive cases were placed under house arrest and some beaten badly, according to human rights activists.

Activists, possibly from outside China, have called on citizens in China to express their displeasure at the country’s lack of reforms and officials’ corruption by silently meeting in front of department stores or other public areas for a “Jasmine Revolution,” a named borrowed from the Tunisian revolt that set off the Mideast unrest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/24/world/asia/24china.html

 

[DominiConnor]

The problem is not the government of the PRC but it's people.

A poisonous cocktail of nationalism, a 3rd rate education system and a culture that values conformity far too much means that many Chinese people genuinely think that democracy, the rule of law and human rights are decadent western irrelevances. (Except those Chinese in death camps of course)

Any government, whether in an obsessively liberal country like Sweden, a theocracy like Iran, or a dictatorship like Libya rules by the consent of it's people. It's a pathetic excuse to say "the army makes us do it" because the army are it's people too, as our the leaders and whatever tribe or party happens to be in charge.
One only has to look at the pathetic wretches who live in Iran. The government stole the election, and they weep a million tears because a few dozen people got killed protesting about it. If they tried this shit on civilized people, you'd have to use WMDs to stop them. When my ethnic group had democracy and habeas corpus taken away from them by the British, a decent % of the government were killed, Iranians shout shit as if anyone cared.

Americans seem to see democracy as some sort of moral virtue, which it ain't.

It's a technology.

Democracy is a way of making large scale decisions reasonably efficiently, and ensuring that when it is necessary to change decision makers, hardly anyone dies. Like any technology it sometimes goes wrong, a couple of my scars come from not treating electricity with enough respect.

Thus when some dimwit nationalist or religious nutter says that his tribe/faith/party does not need democracy and that it's irrelevant, he is no different to a peasant who can't understand why electricity might be useful. Faraday (as in the unit), was asked by a politician what electricity was, and what possible use it might be. He replied that he didn't really know, but that before long the politician would be taxing it

The rule of law is the same thing. It's useful. Yes it's nicer to live in country where you have confidence that your actions won't land you in the hands of torturers, or that your home won't just be handed to a friend of the local warlord, but it's more efficient.

Law reduces risk.
As quants we know that risk is a cost, and the more of it you have for a given return, the less rich you will become.

By reducing risk, you help people to decide to invest in businesses, the education of themselves and their children and even invest in society and common good. I have been treated in hospitals which were created by very rich people for the benefit of all. No one smart enough to make themselves rich would even consider creating such a thing in a place like China or Libya, since it would be stolen within days, and where any charity is seen as a competitor to state power with possibly fatal consequences for you and your children.

Peasants aren't always poor, it's a state of mind.

One day, enough people in the PRC will rise above the level of peasant and not see electricity/democracy as some scary black magic, but I see very little evidence of this.

 

[DominiConnor]

I see that China has blocked LinkedIn because people have used the word "Jasmine" there.

 

[BILEL]

Hello all,
I'm from Tunisia

.I encourage the chinese people to defend human rights and democracy.
I agree with Connor on that "The problem is not the government of the PRC but it's people", of course the people of Tunisia is the most European people of North Africa.
see: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/tunisia/index.html.

 

[DominiConnor]

I'm glad to see that Tunisia is moving out of the darkness.


I believe Tunisians or Egyptians or Bahranians actually want the same stuff as Europeans.

They want an opportunity to make their lives better and that of their children

They don't want to be screwed with by scum with guns

They want to worship or not worship some God or football player without risking death.

They don't want to have to bribe officials to get medical treatment.

They do want to eat properly.

They do not want to live in fear.

They want to know what the rules are, and have some input in setting them.

Democracy is a good way of getting those things, no system ever devised come close. Yes it was a European/British invention, but so were electricity, antibiotics, the telephone and the WWW.

China has blocked the word "Egypt" as well as "Jasmine" which pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the failures of the Chinese people to sort their own lives out.

 

[Will Bear]

Connor,

With all due respect, I think your opinions are biased. Take Korea as an example. North and South are the same people who share the same culture. Yet, the south is a democratic county while the north is still autocratic. Do you believe that Kim rules North Korea by the consent of his people? If yes, then you should see people in South Korea admire the dictatorship in North Korea.

As an average Chinese, I long for democracy. As an average Chinese, I don't have a voice in my own country. Those who support autocracy in China are at the top of the food chain and gaining the most from the curent political regime at the same time. So why should they stop saying "long live the Party"?

The problem is not the government of the PRC but it's people.

A poisonous cocktail of nationalism, a 3rd rate education system and a culture that values conformity far too much means that many Chinese people genuinely think that democracy, the rule of law and human rights are decadent western irrelevances. (Except those Chinese in death camps of course)

Any government, whether in an obsessively liberal country like Sweden, a theocracy like Iran, or a dictatorship like Libya rules by the consent of it's people. It's a pathetic excuse to say "the army makes us do it" because the army are it's people too, as our the leaders and whatever tribe or party happens to be in charge.
One only has to look at the pathetic wretches who live in Iran. The government stole the election, and they weep a million tears because a few dozen people got killed protesting about it. If they tried this shit on civilized people, you'd have to use WMDs to stop them. When my ethnic group had democracy and habeas corpus taken away from them by the British, a decent % of the government were killed, Iranians shout shit as if anyone cared.

Americans seem to see democracy as some sort of moral virtue, which it ain't.

It's a technology.

Democracy is a way of making large scale decisions reasonably efficiently, and ensuring that when it is necessary to change decision makers, hardly anyone dies. Like any technology it sometimes goes wrong, a couple of my scars come from not treating electricity with enough respect.

Thus when some dimwit nationalist or religious nutter says that his tribe/faith/party does not need democracy and that it's irrelevant, he is no different to a peasant who can't understand why electricity might be useful. Faraday (as in the unit), was asked by a politician what electricity was, and what possible use it might be. He replied that he didn't really know, but that before long the politician would be taxing it

The rule of law is the same thing. It's useful. Yes it's nicer to live in country where you have confidence that your actions won't land you in the hands of torturers, or that your home won't just be handed to a friend of the local warlord, but it's more efficient.

Law reduces risk.
As quants we know that risk is a cost, and the more of it you have for a given return, the less rich you will become.

By reducing risk, you help people to decide to invest in businesses, the education of themselves and their children and even invest in society and common good. I have been treated in hospitals which were created by very rich people for the benefit of all. No one smart enough to make themselves rich would even consider creating such a thing in a place like China or Libya, since it would be stolen within days, and where any charity is seen as a competitor to state power with possibly fatal consequences for you and your children.

Peasants aren't always poor, it's a state of mind.

One day, enough people in the PRC will rise above the level of peasant and not see electricity/democracy as some scary black magic, but I see very little evidence of this.

 

[MSFHQ]

I think the Chinese would like Democracy, but the government is running things well enough that the masses don't yearn for it as of yet. The problem with autocratic countries is that they must always make sure the people are generally happy. Once the masses become dissatisfied, the risk of revolt increases. In a Democracy, you have freedoms and the opportunity to have free elections. This is kind of a blow off valve for the people.

I don't think China is at the place that the ME is right now, but it can be one day. The leaders are cognizant of this, but sometimes things move to fast, even for the PRC.