Is MFE a good career move?

[VienD]

MFE got us all excited, it can't just be a goldmine, right? :D

 

[bigbadwolf]

MFE got us all excited, it can't just be a goldmine, right?

People with advanced degrees in physics, math, and engineering had to make a living and couldn't do it in their original disciplines. Wall Street discovered a use for these nerdy types -- if for no other reason than that they could put a patina of intellectual respectability on the rubbish Wall Street was peddling. I also don't think FE is "science" -- in the same way that I don't think economics is a science; economics may be dressed up in the language of math but that's just to camouflage its intellectual poverty and to provide some sham intellectual respectability.

To be a science there must be certain core principles -- in mechanics, it would be laws of conservation of energy, of momentum, and so on. It must be possible to develop a rich theoretical structure on such principles. And the structure must not only explain disparate empirical phenomena but also non-trivially predict new ones (e.g., the existence of Neptune, or existence of radio waves). By these criteria, classical mechanics, electrodynamics, statistical physics, general relativity, and quantum mechanics are all science. FE, on the other hand, is based on ad hoc assumptions and principles, and for all sorts of other reasons -- non-repeatability of experiments, non-predictability of new phenomenon -- cannot emulate real science.

But this is all irrelevant. People drift to FE in order to put food on the table and pay the rent. We have to eat as well and can't just engage in idle philosophical debate about what is or is not true science.

 

[chaoticrambler]

People with advanced degrees in physics, math, and engineering had to make a living and couldn't do it in their original disciplines. Wall Street discovered a use for these nerdy types -- if for no other reason than that they could put a patina of intellectual respectability on the rubbish Wall Street was peddling. I also don't think FE is "science" -- in the same way that I don't think economics is a science; economics may be dressed up in the language of math but that's just to camouflage its intellectual poverty and to provide some sham intellectual respectability.

To be a science there must be certain core principles -- in mechanics, it would be laws of conservation of energy, of momentum, and so on. It must be possible to develop a rich theoretical structure on such principles. And the structure must not only explain disparate empirical phenomena but also non-trivially predict new ones (e.g., the existence of Neptune, or existence of radio waves). By these criteria, classical mechanics, electrodynamics, statistical physics, general relativity, and quantum mechanics are all science. FE, on the other hand, is based on ad hoc assumptions and principles, and for all sorts of other reasons -- non-repeatability of experiments, non-predictability of new phenomenon -- cannot emulate real science.

But this is all irrelevant. People drift to FE in order to put food on the table and pay the rent. We have to eat as well and can't just engage in idle philosophical debate about what is or is not true science.

You put it along the ways I was thinking. I am for not a single moment arguing whether we should be doing it or not, all I am saying is quant finance it is not science. There is a lot of "art" in it.

 

[VienD]

You put it along the ways I was thinking. I am for not a single moment arguing whether we should be doing it or not, all I am saying is quant finance it is not science. There is a lot of "art" in it.

Just kinda of me interested in finding out what's the true definition of science is. So here it is, from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:

Definition
science noun

/sa??nt?s/ n

•
(knowledge from) the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical world, especially by watching, measuring and doing experiments, and the development of theories to describe the results of these activities
pure/applied science
recent developments in science and technology
Space travel is one of the marvels/wonders of modern science.


•
[C or U] a particular subject that is studied using scientific methods
physical sciences
Economics is not an exact science.
advances in medical science


•
the study of science
a science graduate/teacher
a science course/lesson

(Definition of science noun from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

 

[smerrill]

Could I get a quant job?

I'm thinking about moving from Maine to NY to try my hand at quant work and would appreciate your thoughts about whether I could land a job. I have a PhD, but it's not in mathematics - it's in a natural resources field. The dissertation was pretty quantitative, though - a lot of spatial statistics. Undergraduate training was not in finance either, unfortunately. I'm a professor now in a mostly non-quantitative area (public policy), and direct a research center with "finance" in the title, though we don't do anything Wall Street would care about (it goes by "environmental finance"). I'm Excel savvy but have never done VBA or C++ or Java programming.

I saw a bunch of entry level quant jobs on this network but they all seem to require something I lack, most usually the programming bit. Do you think I could take a few online certificate courses in C++ and Java and be competitive for one of these jobs? I'm 40 now and have a ton of awards and senior management experience, some in the private sector, but again probably not stuff that makes me competitive for these jobs. I'm ready to try something completely different and move to the big city if I could land a job.

Thanks in advance for any insights.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I'm thinking about moving from Maine to NY to try my hand at quant work and would appreciate your thoughts about whether I could land a job. I have a PhD, but it's not in mathematics - it's in a natural resources field. The dissertation was pretty quantitative, though - a lot of spatial statistics. Undergraduate training was not in finance either, unfortunately. I'm a professor now in a mostly non-quantitative area (public policy), and direct a research center with "finance" in the title, though we don't do anything Wall Street would care about (it goes by "environmental finance"). I'm Excel savvy but have never done VBA or C++ or Java programming.

I saw a bunch of entry level quant jobs on this network but they all seem to require something I lack, most usually the programming bit. Do you think I could take a few online certificate courses in C++ and Java and be competitive for one of these jobs? I'm 40 now and have a ton of awards and senior management experience, some in the private sector, but again probably not stuff that makes me competitive for these jobs. I'm ready to try something completely different and move to the big city if I could land a job.

To be frank, it's next to impossible. You need a lot of extra math and a lot of extra programming. In addition, employers will look at your age. In the words of Grandmaster Flash's rap song, "The Message," employers want someone young "they can use and abuse like hell." You will be competing in a tight job market for entry-level jobs with 28- and 30-year-olds who will have more relevant experience and qualifications. If you already have a comfortable job, why jump from the frying pan into the fire? Maybe five or ten years ago, it might have been doable, maybe even feasible; not today.

 

[smerrill]

but is age really that important?

Bigbadwolf,

Thanks for your candid thoughts. I posted my question on its own thread last night to see if I'd get more replies, and there was a most helpful one from Andy:

"Smerrill,
Your profile is definitely not the typical one so I think you should approach the whole thing a bit different. Your programming skill is lacking so addressing it would be top priority. Since you already know Excel, I would go VBA->Matlab->C#->SQL in that order.
It's not worth it doing C++ now unless you target the hardcore roles.
Job wise, there are plenty of places others than those traditionally hire from the young blood pool. Places like small shops, consulting firms, financial services. I used to work with a guy whose specialty is Excel/VBA and he does make great money as a consultant. Banks have thousands of Excel spreadsheets that need maintenance so having a niche isn't a bad way to make money.
Age wise, contradictory to common belief, I have met more people in their mid 30s doing MFE than the freshly graduated in their 20s."

... so yes I'd be competing against younger folks for jobs from the 'young blood pool', but what do you think of Andy's idea about specialty shops and other niche applications?

... to your question about the frying pan: eventually a big career shift is in order for many people. So it is for me now. I'm trying to build up my skill set and leverage my way in to quant life. I recognize it will take time. Do you really think it's pointless? Any other perspectives out there?

... Isn't there also always the chance that some quant employers will perceive value in a list of other significant accomplishments? Kind of like military training can impress employers that the candidate has a spine and discipline - but in this case that extraordinary accomplishments from other fields can show a capacity to excel and make them money?

Thanks,
Sam

 

[bigbadwolf]

... so yes I'd be competing against younger folks for jobs from the 'young blood pool', but what do you think of Andy's idea about specialty shops and other niche applications?

... to your question about the frying pan: eventually a big career shift is in order for many people. So it is for me now. I'm trying to build up my skill set and leverage my way in to quant life. I recognize it will take time. Do you really think it's pointless? Any other perspectives out there?

... Isn't there also always the chance that some quant employers will perceive value in a list of other significant accomplishments? Kind of like military training can impress employers that the candidate has a spine and discipline - but in this case that extraordinary accomplishments from other fields can show a capacity to excel and make them money?

I think you're determined to go ahead with your move (mid-life crisis?) and merely want reassurance. I doubt anything I say will dissuade you. As Patrick Swayze says in "Roadhouse," "Opinions vary." One thing Alain has pointed out a couple of times is that you will need to be outstanding in at least one area to be competitive -- your ace-in-the-hole, your secret trump card.

 

[smerrill]

Well, mid-life crises have certainly fueled crazier ideas. Yes looking for reassurance, but no, not completely determined - for example I know that even after I would take a bunch of programming courses, not having had enough formal mathematics would come back to bite someday. Someone else suggested an MFE first. I'm thinking about it. Thanks.

 

[alain]

Smerrill, since you are older, you will need to bring something to the table that other can't offer. Make sure you are really really good at one specific thing that people need and want. I don't know what exactly is that for you.

You mention you have a PhD, which field?