U.S. Schools Expelled 8,000 Chinese Students

[C S]

MAFN puts together a resume book, and literally every Chinese student in the program claimed to have internship experience either at the "Bank of China," the "National Bureau of Statistics," or at a different Chinese bank-- if it was all just completely made up, I'd actually consider it to be much more egregious cheating than copying hw assignments

If this were the case, there would have to be collusion on the part of Chinese quants at banks where these resumes were submitted, since they would either have heard about the practice or easily be able to unravel the lies in questioning the applicant. I would find this more egregious. In fact, it would be a fire-able offense for the person who lied on the resume and the people who were aware of it but let it by.

 

[dunzaicuntou]

My point was that internships do not really exist in China. If the only requirement to get an internship at Citibank China is to have a balance of X amount, how can you believe that they are doing any real work? From what I understand, internships in China consist of getting a piece of paper saying you did the internship and maybe sitting there for a couple of weeks. Yet, look at resumes of Chinese students at some MFE programs. One of my classmates, who is currently attending a top MFE program, simply made up the internships on his resume.

There simply does not exist an infrastructure in China where students can get meaningful internships while in school; even if you are studying at a top university, opportunities are almost nonexistent. I would posit that internships only exist in China for the advantages they offer to students in graduate admissions. There is no other reason for them to exist because unlike the United States there is no need for some sort of a pipeline for full-time employees, human capital is something that China definitely does not lack. An interesting anecdote: a family friend's daughter got a M.S. at a very good school in China, couldn't find a job and opened a bubble tea cafe.

While I cannot really substantiate my claims, I believe my points are reasonable to consider. I am a second-generation Chinese-American and whenever I go back to China, people love discussing China's problems with my parents...lol

So funny you talk lots of bullshit and then simply say 'I cannot substantiate my claims'... Now I tell you when Chinese students say they had an internship then they did have an internship. You just DON'T say their internships are fake when they actually put tons of efforts on them.

Well you simply claim all internships are fake in China only based on fake citi internship of your Chinese classmate... I would consider it inappropriate to claim all Chinese Americans are idiots just based on your example.

 

[dunzaicuntou]

MAFN puts together a resume book, and literally every Chinese student in the program claimed to have internship experience either at the "Bank of China," the "National Bureau of Statistics," or at a different Chinese bank-- if it was all just completely made up, I'd actually consider it to be much more egregious cheating than copying hw assignments

Well Well Well isn't this our dear friend from the other mafn thread?
I also had an internship in Bank of China and I worked hard there for 4 months. I tell you this is also the case for most of your Chinese classmates.
So strange you know everything about Chinese students even though you are not a Chinese and you have never been to China.
I am actually considering sending you a trophy with "Mr. Know Everything " on it. I would appreciate it if you give me an address
Now tell me in which planet can we find aliens in our universe?

 

[Omar Felix]

My point was that internships do not really exist in China. If the only requirement to get an internship at Citibank China is to have a balance of X amount, how can you believe that they are doing any real work? From what I understand, internships in China consist of getting a piece of paper saying you did the internship and maybe sitting there for a couple of weeks. Yet, look at resumes of Chinese students at some MFE programs. One of my classmates, who is currently attending a top MFE program, simply made up the internships on his resume.

There simply does not exist an infrastructure in China where students can get meaningful internships while in school; even if you are studying at a top university, opportunities are almost nonexistent. I would posit that internships only exist in China for the advantages they offer to students in graduate admissions. There is no other reason for them to exist because unlike the United States there is no need for some sort of a pipeline for full-time employees, human capital is something that China definitely does not lack. An interesting anecdote: a family friend's daughter got a M.S. at a very good school in China, couldn't find a job and opened a bubble tea cafe.

While I cannot really substantiate my claims, I believe my points are reasonable to consider. I am a second-generation Chinese-American and whenever I go back to China, people love discussing China's problems with my parents...lol

Please open the career website of Citi, GS, MS, or JPM, there are tons of internship positions in China, how dare you say that "There simply does not exist an infrastructure in China"? Such a pathetic idiot.

 

[Omar Felix]

MAFN puts together a resume book, and literally every Chinese student in the program claimed to have internship experience either at the "Bank of China," the "National Bureau of Statistics," or at a different Chinese bank-- if it was all just completely made up, I'd actually consider it to be much more egregious cheating than copying hw assignments

So glad that you graduated after two semesters, or it will be such a disaster to sit in the same classroom with such an arrogant white idiot.
Not only Chinese students, but also the Indians, French, and some other American students saw your previous threads and know how racist you are.

 

[Omar Felix]

There are more than 280,000 Chinese students in America, 1600 got expelled for cheating. So what is the percentage for cheating? 0.57%!!! Does 0.57% mean anything? Oh my god please help these Chinese-savers here. In fact 60% of US adults cheated at least once in their lifetime.
http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/cheating-and-infidelity/stats-about-infidelity.html

By the way, to your question, Chinese do cheat in the MFE programs, but this is NOT exclusive to Chinese students. I personally showed my codes to some French guys and they literally copied my code and I had to change my own work a little bit before I submitted the homework. And these French guys also found very good summer internship or full time positions and I believe we'll still be lifelong friends. I also saw some other Indian guys copying each other's homework. But does this really mean anything in terms of their CULTURE. God you must be kidding me.

 

[CasanovaJ]

OK, I've had enough of this nonsense... deleting account

 

[TehRaio]

lol am I the only one who kind of foresaw this?

 

[Omar Felix]

lol am I the only one who kind of foresaw this?

I think every normal human being should be able to "foresee" the negative result of narrow-minded racisms. So don't be too proud of your gift of predicting

 

[TehRaio]

I think the article didn't say much beside that *NEWSFLASH* chinese students have weaknesses too and that some of them are expelled for cheating.
so guys, please let's not get worked up about it that much.

Sorry. I am so disappointed about some Active Members’ comments. Good bye QuantNet.

Baby Come Baaack

 

[Omar Felix]

I think the article didn't say much beside that *NEWSFLASH* chinese students have weaknesses too and that some of them are expelled for cheating.
so guys, please let's not get worked up about it that much.



Baby Come Baaack

I think we are not talking about the article. we are talking about the threads claiming that Chinese has a culture to cheat.

 

[dunzaicuntou]

Sorry. I am so disappointed about some Active Members’ comments. Good bye QuantNet.

no no no mon ami, there is no need to leave us. Now that our famous moron Casanova has deleted his account, just ignore some pathetically ignorant Chinese Americans ( or Australians) you will be a happy member of our quantnet family like before(y)

 

[C S]

I am totally shocked: such a number of “educated Americans” blatantly assert that China has a culture of cheating, according to a news and subjective speculation...I see homeless guys everywhere in USA. Maybe I need to tell others in my country that USA has a culture of tramps?


Let me tell you some truths:


1. Do you know how Chinese students get into universities? There are more than 9 million students who take the national “College Entrance Examination” each year -- the only way to get into university. I ranked top 3000 out of 350,000 students in this exam in my province, but I still cannot get into a top university in China. Only top 150 could be admitted into Tsinghua and Peking University. There is no way to cheat in this most strict exam. The harsh competition teaches us studying hard is the only way to survive. That’s why many Chinese students could always maintain high academic performance in US universities.


2. That’s a shame that those Chinese students were expelled, and some of them indeed cheated. But how can you take for granted that Chinese students all like cheating? Many US institutions admitted numerous unqualified Chinese students, just for money. But who can tell me that you heard about some Chinese student was expelled because of cheating in top programs (not only MFE, including all fields)?


3. I have interned at “Bank of China”. Let me tell you why most students have internships at those commercial banks: because almost every district has at least one branch of those commercial banks, they have huge demand for interns, and it is relatively easy to find an internship in those institutions. However, that’s just the tip of the iceberg, because there are far more students who are unable to get internships there. You only see a very very small group.


4. Can the “special” case at Citi bank represent all? Internships do not really exist in China? How stupid you are. How can you speculate that such a big economy with countless companies don’t have demand for interns and don’t have a standardized process to hire interns. You are really good at joking. Last year, I sent out more than 100 resumes to apply for an internship in financial company but only got 2 interview invitations... The situation is the same as in USA. Don’t be narrow-minded anymore.


5. Using past exams to study is cheating? It is indeed a common phenomenon in China. But when I studied at UC Berkeley, the TA actively sent us past exams and solutions to prepare for final, and told us many problems would be similar to past ones. Don’t use double standard. It is not about definition. Some lower-ranked universities indeed are not such strict as good ones in punishing cheating, but those cannot represent all Chinese students.


6. I think some of you are wearing colored glasses. Cheating is a totally individual behavior that can occur in any group of people. Remember we have 1.4 billion population and more than 250,000 students studying in USA. What you see is only a small sample. If you cannot give me a cheating rate of all countries’ students and prove that Chinese students particularly like cheating, please don’t hold a part as the whole, because many phenomena in USA can be also overgeneralized in the same way.


Please don’t focus your discussion on “ALL CHINESE”. We have been trying to change some bad phenomena that you think are “cultures of China”. YOU WILL SEE OUR EFFORTS.

There's a lot here but I wanted to clarify a few points that seem made in response to my previous comments. This is not to fan the flames but I hope to put a more moderating tone on this.

First, unlike (I think) most here, I spent some time teaching at the university level. I saw cheaters and had to actually deal with them. I count a fair number of professors among my friends and former colleagues. And these issues have come up in discussions with them.

I didn't see the amazing high academic quality of Chinese students that you mention. I was privileged to have taught some exceptional chinese students but I thought most of them were quite average. I noticed a fair number were quite accomplished at rote thinking, but that's hardly the same as understanding. I did however appreciate the earnestness and diligence of most Chinese students.

Secondly, it's quite a different situation when a professor hands out previous course exams and materials. A lot of professors purposefully do not make their entire library of exam questions available to students. In case it's not obvious why, it's because if you actually try to do a good job at teaching, you soon realize you can't just recycle problems with different numbers in them. To actually teach concepts requires some carefully crafted problems and its difficult sometimes to craft very different ones for the same concept. (Incidentally this is also why interview problems tend to get recycled but there it's considered a necessary, even encouraged, part of the game to study old questions. Strangely, professors at least in the U.S. often do not think of their exams as being the same type of game. )

Lastly I did see a decent amount of cheating while teaching. Not a lot. I think I did a good job of discouraging it. What I noticed is that it's generally students who find themselves struggling and feel despair that cheat. There were very few "diabolical" cheaters who were systematically cheating. On the other hand, maybe I didn't catch them!

There was a fair mix of domestic and international cheaters. The usual cause seemed to be lack of preparation, or some pressure to get a perfect gpa, or language issues (for international students).

The interesting thing was when I entered an MFE program. I soon learned this was quite a different world than the one I had been in before. In this world, money seemed to take priority in everything. There were people teaching that were clearly there just for the extra income. I do think this type of environment lets cheating occur very naturally.

 

[bigbadwolf]

The interesting thing was when I entered an MFE program. I soon learned this was quite a different world than the one I had been in before. In this world, money seemed to take priority in everything. There were people teaching that were clearly there just for the extra income. I do think this type of environment lets cheating occur very naturally.

This holds a fortiori for the bum programs, which are essentially just selling meretricious certificates to foreign students for hard cash. The program director and instructors don't care because the reputation and credibility of the program are not something to be maintained as they doesn't exist. They're not placing students in real jobs. So the students pay their hard cash, cheat, get their piece of paper, and then go home.

 

[mhy]

2. That’s a shame that those Chinese students were expelled, and some of them indeed cheated. But how can you take for granted that Chinese students all like cheating? Many US institutions admitted numerous unqualified Chinese students, just for money. But who can tell me that you heard about some Chinese student was expelled because of cheating in top programs (not only MFE, including all fields)?

I think this is the real problem. Except for the prestigious ones, MFE/MFin/MathFin programs don't really have an incentive to expel these kids. They bring in millions of $$$.

People (including Chinese students) have been expelled from top MFE programs for cheating. I guarantee you that. At my program we had several lengthy sessions about ethics and academic integrity and these are taken very seriously.

 

[Zhenghao Li]

Guys, we should be happy that we have these cheaters. If we don't have these people in the market, who do we earn money from? Think about how great it will be if these people are competing against in a trade/investment scenario.

My point was that internships do not really exist in China. If the only requirement to get an internship at Citibank China is to have a balance of X amount, how can you believe that they are doing any real work? From what I understand, internships in China consist of getting a piece of paper saying you did the internship and maybe sitting there for a couple of weeks. Yet, look at resumes of Chinese students at some MFE programs. One of my classmates, who is currently attending a top MFE program, simply made up the internships on his resume.

There simply does not exist an infrastructure in China where students can get meaningful internships while in school; even if you are studying at a top university, opportunities are almost nonexistent. I would posit that internships only exist in China for the advantages they offer to students in graduate admissions. There is no other reason for them to exist because unlike the United States there is no need for some sort of a pipeline for full-time employees, human capital is something that China definitely does not lack. An interesting anecdote: a family friend's daughter got a M.S. at a very good school in China, couldn't find a job and opened a bubble tea cafe.

While I cannot really substantiate my claims, I believe my points are reasonable to consider. I am a second-generation Chinese-American and whenever I go back to China, people love discussing China's problems with my parents...lol

Personally I think you're mostly right. But there's something that you're missing too. It is true that they get the job as you said, but it doesn't mean all of them would waste their time during the internship. I personally know several really smart people who did many material things during their internships that they got from parents' connections. The fact that the internships are not structured do sometimes mean you don't learn much, but in some circumstances it could also mean you could learn a tremendous amount because as usually the only intern you could easily end up doing everything for everyone. It really all depends on you. I even know some who were handled real trading/money power near the end of his internship. It's impossible to see that in the U.S..

Also, American people are doing the same thing all the time. It's unlike China but your family/connections still play a big role in your career path. I've just seen too much........And please do not tell me you've never met an American people who has really stella internship but doesn't know anything at all. After all, Consulting and IBD are the most popular jobs, not Research or Trading, right?

 

[Zhenghao Li]

As someone who studied in the U.S. for 4 years across 2 different colleges, I hard to believe you really think American people don't cheat or cheat less than Chinese or Indian people. I don't even want to mention the W-E-E-D, C-O-K-E and other issues I've seen so many times. Come on, give me a break and stop making me laugh. Have you ever get close to know what a "FRATERNITY" is ?

 

[Gavin L]

Weed/Coke =/= Academic dishonesty?

 

[Zhenghao Li]

Weed/Coke =/= Academic dishonesty?

It's more serious than Academic dishonesty and how about drug dealings that must be associated with it? Academic dishonesty is against the school code but doing drugs is against the LAW. And you really think some one who enjoy/deal drugs would ALWAYS be honest on their academics? Just please.....................

Also, the report didn't say all these people got expelled for academic reasons.

 

[JLevin]

Uh

First, doing drugs and dealing drugs are two very different things. I honestly don't know why drugs, in general, entered this thread. But I may as well mention that...;

Second, comparing drugs and cheating is apples and oranges. Saying that someone enjoys drugs => they're likely to cheat is like saying someone enjoys oranges => they're likely to enjoy apples

This is all ambiguous, how much is 8000 really? People here should know better; that a number on its own isn't that meaningful. It needs another number to compare against. Some statistical analysis, yeah?

It's funny how ridiculous some of the posts here are haha