Aspiring Quant Applying for undergrad degree

[GoIllini]

Says who?

Well, US News and World Reports for one. They correctly rank UPenn as #1 in Finance and #3 in Accy, but they rank it 20th for Computer Science- behind all of the schools I just mentioned. A lot of this has to do with UPenn's research profile in CS and Engineering. They get a lot fewer grants than the big state research institutions get, and they don't have an NSF supercomputing site. This leads to a diminished profile for academic research and industry recruiting. In 2007, UPenn reported that the average engineering master's student earned $69K/year upon graduation:

http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/seas/masterssurvey2008.pdf

At the same time, UIUC's undergraduated numbers when I was a senior indicated an average starting salary of $70K/year. PayScale provides confirmation of this:

PayScale - University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) School Salary, Average Salaries by Degree

In short, getting an undergraduate degree from one of the aforementioned state schools may make you as marketable as a master's degree from UPenn.

Penn's a good school and I'm not knocking it, but a number of state schools offer a better value, and arguably, a better placement upon graduation. Penn notes that three of its students went to Microsoft and Google in 2008- at UIUC, the number was actually a percentage; 20%. UPenn notes an average of 1.7 offers per student; UIUC students got an average of three offers. I can go on, but for all of UPenn's prestige, it can't get its students hired the same way that UIUC, UT Austin, Georgia Tech, and UW can. Unless you really want the prestige of an Ivy League school or love going to a small school, I'd recommend pursuing a degree at Ga. Tech, Berkeley, or UIUC over UPenn. It's cheaper and you'll get, on average, a higher-paying job upon graduation. You'll also have a much stronger academic research profile if you want to pursue a quant job through a PhD or research-oriented Master's program.

 

[chaoticrambler]

Seriously, even trying to compare UPenn to Berkeley in Engineering/CS is big joke.
UPenn is not even in the same league (that league being MIT/Stanford/Princeton/Berkeley).
If you break up the top 25 engineering schools into 3 tiers, UPenn will be in the 3rd tier, while UIUC,Gatech,UT-Austin will be in 2nd tier.

 

[alain]

you guys need to forget about rankings and concentrate on learning and showing that you are good.

 

[WilliamY]

Shh! Hush, Alain! Do not give away (obvious) secrets to the less informed.

 

[GoIllini]

you guys need to forget about rankings and concentrate on learning and showing that you are good.

True, but the OP wants to know about undergrad programs. Whether or not I'm a loudmouth idiot has little bearing on whether state schools or Ivy Leagues are a good choice :D- the more relevant question for a high school senior. Lots of smart people come out of UPenn and CG seems like a good example. The question, however, is what's the probability of getting a good job given that you've graduated from a certain program. The odds are high at Penn but they're even higher at the state schools we just mentioned. Also, you'll graduate state school having paid a lot less in tuition than if you went to a private school. This means less work to get your finances back in shape before you pursue an MFE.

It's not about who graduated from a cooler school or who's better- the question is about which school is the best choice for someone who wants to go into financial engineering. I've rendered my opinion on this matter and done my best to back it up with US News rankings and hard salary stats. How you perform in college certainly does matter, but that's pretty irrelevant to a HS student right now- wouldn't you agree?

Seriously, even trying to compare UPenn to Berkeley in Engineering/CS is big joke.

That's a little too harsh. There's a lot of smart CS majors who graduate from Penn and they get a pretty fair playing field when competing for jobs as financial programmers against the state schoolers. If you don't care about how expensive tuition is and your goal is to graduate in CS, be a financial programmer at an I-bank for a few years and go back and get your MFE, it is less likely that a degree from UPenn will hurt your strategy.

That said, there's not a lot of reasons to go to UPenn instead of a school like Berkeley or Ga. Tech if you're indifferent about the State School vs. Ivy League feel and you don't get a serious reduction in tuition costs from Penn.

 

[CGiuliano]

you guys need to forget about rankings and concentrate on learning and showing that you are good.

It's all about perspective. Clearly you are far beyond the application process.

 

[alain]

That's the reason that I'm telling you to focus your effort in the learning. That will be more important than from what school you are coming from.

 

[CGiuliano]

A little off topic, but here is a heads up about coming here: I've been switching off between studying analysis and probability for the past 11 hours, and derived an equation of my own.

Midterm week at Cornell = Hell.

I went to Starbucks a couple hours ago, and ordered a quadruple espresso. The guy behind the counter looked at me funny.

 

[DanM]

That's why you take analysis during the summer by itself.

 

[NickTri]

Hey man, Haven't been on the forums for a while. Lots of Applications. So far I've applied to MIT and Cornell (EA and ED respectively) The interviewer for Cornell told me a lot. I applied to CAS but i might end up transferring to Engineering (if it interests me more). Right now I'm compiling my final list for colleges for regular admission. I'm thinking about majoring in Applied Math/CS or Operations Research if they have it.

University Of Chicago
Lehigh
Columbia University
NYU
Carnegie Mellon
UC Berkeley
Georgia Tech - tell me if its worth applying there
Michigan - tell me if this is good
Duke- know some admissions people there.
and NYU Poly as super saftey

 

[winjitsu]

Haha also in the same boat.


I'm applying for :

Columbia (ED)
Carnegie
Cornell
Brown
U Chicago
Northwestern
NYU

I'm also looking at Claremont Mckenna and Harvey Mudd for that small LAC feel

But I just had a quick question. So my future career goal is to end up as a quant. Would you guys not suggest that I take Financial math at the undergraduate level, but focus on something broader instead? Because I know that CMU has CF for undergrads and Columbia has IE:ORFE. Would an applied math degree be better?

Thanks

 

[chaoticrambler]

I will repeat my opinion. Keep it simple AND keep it general at undergrad level.

I would advise against doing a IE-OR or Finance undergrad (maybe you can get a minor..MAYBE).

Learn lots of math, and also learn how to apply it (be it through physics or engineering classes).
And get very good at one programming language of your choice.

 

[vvarma]

UT Austin ahead of UPenn? I did not go to either school, but I think you are ignoring the brand value of UPenn out of the equation. Especially, if you want to be in financial services, the network from UPenn should help you a lot more than UTAustin or Ga-Tech, dont you think?

 

[NickTri]

Yeah Ill probably stick with applied math with some computer science

 

[GoIllini]

UT Austin ahead of UPenn? I did not go to either school, but I think you are ignoring the brand value of UPenn out of the equation. Especially, if you want to be in financial services, the network from UPenn should help you a lot more than UTAustin or Ga-Tech, dont you think?

Look, we're engineers who call it as we see it. UPenn has great programs and a great name for finance, but brand becomes less important and academic rigor and research becomes more important as you move into the technical disciplines- engineering and the hard sciences. Smaller schools like UPenn that don't focus exclusively on science and engineering (MIT, Stanford, and maybe Cornell, CMU and Rose-Hullman are the exceptions among the brand-name schools) just don't have enough professors and resources to run world-class research programs in Mechanical Engineering or Physics. The true research schools tend to also enforce higher standards for admission and graduation. At Illinois, I had to complete Diffy'Qs and go all the way up to 400-level probability courses to get a CS degree. My friends from Dartmouth and UPenn only had to take Calc III, basic stats, and linear equations. A lot of hedge funds and prop shops realize this and adjust their recruiting strategies appropriately when it comes to technology.

You can pick up the finance brand name with a post-graduate degree. For undergrad, a Mechanical Engineering degree from Michigan, Berkeley, or Georgia Tech will give you a better shot at going directly to a brand-name grad school and better back-up plans (going into industry as a mechanical engineer for a few years) than UPenn will.

Yeah Ill probably stick with applied math with some computer science

Ask your parents if they're willing to pay for a year of grad school (or ask yourself if you want to take on the added debt/expense). If the answer is no, I would seriously consider having at least one practical major. Computer Science or a practical engineering discipline might be good choices and would have a lot of common courses with an applied math degree. Alternatively, you could go the actuarial science or accounting route, which might be a little easier.

Just make sure that you have a backup plan if you need to line up a job.

 

[vvarma]

Good points, GoIllini. I went through engg undergrad myself, and I understand the approach.

A lot of hedge funds and prop shops realize this and adjust their recruiting strategies appropriately when it comes to technology.

If there is enough evidence of this, then I would go with it. In my experience, I noticed that Banks, Hedge Funds and PE companies are clustered around NY area and few Quant/Prop trading firms around Chicago. The local universities get a lot more recruiting for both internships and starting jobs. I think, Baruch undergrad students are better positioned, in terms of recruitment, compared to a UT Austin.

I understand this is a sensitive subject, but I just wanted to add a practical element to the discussion. An academic course in computer science/econometrics can always be compensated by just grabbing a book and spending a few solid weeks on it, but lack of recruitment options are less manageable.