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College-Industrial Scam

How about a cap on how much you can borrow for an UG degree. This would force tuition to decrease some and force students to think about the ROI of their chosen major. It would also still allow people to take loans out for what can be the best investment in oneself a person can take.

Capped leverage ratios. Student loans are leverage after all.
 
And in the USSR a globally disproportionate part of the male population (and as a result also female population) held Ph. D.s

What's your point? More people being more educated is a good thing for a society.

The whole point of 'hard' PhD knowledge is a basis for new products and services. I have not seen much of the latter from the former Soviet Union.

In fact, the West does not manufacture so much anymore. So the need for the hard sciences and maths is not so great compared to even 20 years ago...
 
Capped leverage ratios. Student loans are leverage after all.

Yeah, I could see that. I'd like to have student loans based on major and with a GPA component, but I know there would be too much complaining and too much gaming the system.


I believe in the government helping its citizens make this investment and I also believe in those incurring the benefit also incurring the cost. But I just think too many people are financially illiterate or overly optimistic and we need some form of reality being injected in the borrowing process. Expecting schools to do it is not going to happen as they are incentivized to maximize tuition and school attendance.

Limit loan sizes and it will force students to choose lower prices schools or work to make up the delta.
 
The NYC mayor’s advice, given during his weekly radio show, notes that average college students who aren’t rocket scientists might do better pursuing a career cleaning pipes. ‘You don’t spend ... four years spending $40,000, $50,000 in tuition without earning income’ or amassing student loan debt, he explained, and one expert partly agrees with him.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/skip-college-plumber-mayor-bloomberg-article-1.1347576
 
Yeah, I could see that. I'd like to have student loans based on major and with a GPA component, but I know there would be too much complaining and too much gaming the system.


I believe in the government helping its citizens make this investment and I also believe in those incurring the benefit also incurring the cost. But I just think too many people are financially illiterate or overly optimistic and we need some form of reality being injected in the borrowing process. Expecting schools to do it is not going to happen as they are incentivized to maximize tuition and school attendance.

Limit loan sizes and it will force students to choose lower prices schools or work to make up the delta.

You are all ignoring the elephant in the room - the rise of for-profit colleges.
 
Well, another perspective is that employers who were once satisfied with high school graduates are now asking for college graduates

Actually it's more like the factories closed down and moved to China. There are still jobs for people with a high school education. There just aren't as many of them as many moved overseas. People with high school education are much cheaper in China and India...
 
The NYC mayor’s advice, given during his weekly radio show, notes that average college students who aren’t rocket scientists might do better pursuing a career cleaning pipes. ‘You don’t spend ... four years spending $40,000, $50,000 in tuition without earning income’ or amassing student loan debt, he explained, and one expert partly agrees with him.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/skip-college-plumber-mayor-bloomberg-article-1.1347576

Furnite making is also an interesting path. All those baby boomers want personalised products.
And then you have time to play in a metal group at the weekdends.
 
Being a skilled tradesman is a great career. I do agree that for profit colleges are causing a lot of the problems (default rates, level of debt incurred, ROI), but it is people pursuing college because they think they have to that is fueling this demand for U Phoenix, DeVry, etc. Marginal students seeing a college degree as the ticket to a nice life and are willing to go to any school that will accept them.
 
Many of the apprenticeship programs that used to exist fifty years ago have ceased to be. So now people have to get these 2-years associate degrees.

Just about every for-profit has an aggressive recruiting campaign. In some cases recruiters have even been signing on the homeless and the mentally unfit. The name of the game is to get hold of the dollars the US government lends to students. It's a racket of the vilest sort and if there was any justice in this world they'd face a firing squad.
 
This is how difficult it to get an apprenticeship:

A tent city sprang up in the New York City borough of Queens last week as hundreds camped out in order to secure an application for elevator apprenticeships. The job seekers waited as long as six days for IBEW Local 3 to distribute the 750 applications, with just 75 openings guaranteed. Hundreds of late arrivals left empty-handed.

The elevator service and repair apprenticeships offer an increasingly rare opportunity for young workers to get jobs at decent pay. Wages start at $17 an hour, but upon completing the four-year training program, workers can earn between $35 and $40 an hour plus benefits, as a journeyman.

No special qualifications were required to apply, only a high school diploma and the ability to lift 50 pounds. A written test and physical exam will follow for successful applicants.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/05/29/jobs-m29.html
 
Marginal students seeing a college degree as the ticket to a nice life and are willing to go to any school that will accept them.
So long as we view statistics based on level of education, and not level of IQ, this will continue. Because even with all the ills of colleges, today few things have as high a correlation to increased employability as a college degree. And everyone wants to make more money. They are simply behaving as rational, informed consumers. Economists of the world, rejoice! And they don't care if you're on the hook for it ;)

Also lets get the elephant out of the room - if you pursue "things you want to do" you will not have the wage you want to have. Major in Arts, and you will be the most artistic barrista at starbucks.

Being a skilled tradesman is a great career.

Yes, unfortunately it is also a virtually non-existent career path in today's society. It died way back in the 50's (and the degradation of African American and lower-middle-class in general layer of society can be attributed to the disappearance of "tradesman" and factory type jobs). You're about 60 years too late dude. Becoming a skilled craftsman is not significantly easier than becoming employed in finance. Your best bet is to still know someone on the inside. If you don't - fat chance.
 
I think you are being overly pessimistic. You can still make good money being an electrician, plumber, machinist, etc. You can't outsource those jobs and there are barriers to entry (code, unions, skillset, etc). What killed unskilled manufacturing was 3/4 of the world pulling itself out of rubble or poverty.

Everyone talks about post WWII and how great things were in the US. Lets not forget that post WWII had Europe rebuilding, Communism being fought off, India and China living 3rd world existences. Now you have a fully rebuilt and competitive Europe. China which is growing leaps and bounds. India which is a major world economy. Quite simply, competition has increased.
 
You can still make good money being an electrician, plumber, machinist, etc.

becoming a skilled craftsman is not significantly easier than becoming employed in finance. Your best bet is to still know someone on the inside. If you don't - fat chance.


Out of curiosity, how many plumbers/electricians/etc. do you know personally? I know a couple who are successful, but it is an arduous uphill struggle. The key is, as always, knowing the right people to land the big jobs, and successful marketing for the small ones.

Communism being fought off
What Communism? The USSR was a smoking pile of rubble...
 
I know plenty of contractors, plumbers, electricians. And you listed a 30 year time span. Yes, it was in rubble right after WWII, but then the cold war came into play. Regardless, the US was the only player in the game back then. Since then you've seen the rest of the world catch up.


Point is getting a college degree isn't a guarantee. Many white collar jobs are being outsources also. For a lot of the people going to marginal schools and racking up 6 figure debt they would be better off learning a trade or becoming a skilled machinist.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/20...loom-as-most-in-demand-group-of-workers-ages/
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but maybe Americans should be more open to moving to work outside the USA (especially those in the humanities) and the US government should try to make arrangements for this, rather than pretend that they can close the gap. The fact is, America isn't what it used to be and the clear mismatch in supply and demand doesn't show signs of dying any time soon.
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but maybe Americans should be more open to moving to work outside the USA (especially those in the humanities) and the US government should try to make arrangements for this, rather than pretend that they can close the gap. The fact is, America isn't what it used to be and the clear mismatch in supply and demand doesn't show signs of dying any time soon.

Quite agree. This is one useful resource for those so inclined:

http://www.gettingoutofamerica.com/
 
I wonder what the % of students who do a degree because they -also- like it?
 
I wonder what the % of students who do a degree because they -also- like it?

Of the ones who post here, probably few. Their aims are mercenary and they are overly anxious about how much their GPAs and letters of recommendation will impress admissions committees and/or employers. I suspect they have all the enthusiasm for math and coding that a toddler does for the tablespoon of cod liver oil he is forced to swallow.
 
Well, if a student is taking out a $100 K loan, it is better if he has a mercenary attitude and gets a good paying job after his studies. Otherwise, he will be living a miserable life for many years while he tries to pay off the loan with a low-paying job.
 
Well, if a student is taking out a $100 K loan, it is better if he has a mercenary attitude and gets a good paying job after his studies. Otherwise, he will be living a miserable life for many years while he tries to pay off the loan with a low-paying job.

That it's become such an expensive business encourages this kind of thinking. Even if one is genuinely interested in math and coding, one has to make sure to choose the right combinations, aim for the right grades, and not spend any time exploring and digressing into what one is curious about. So, for example, virtually everyone posting here is talking about C++ but no-one (as far as I know) about lambda-calculus. No-one dare drift from the straight and narrow. What would admissions committees think? What would employers think? I don't think this kind of mindless conformity -- induced by fear and the big bucks involved -- can be conducive to personal development.
 
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