Crackdown on Online Universities

[MSFHQ]

I actually agree with BigBadWolf. I think these online universities need to be reigned in because they are a huge scam, but it would not be a huge leap to start pointing fingers at not for profit schools that churn out people with no job prospects.

Then if you try and regulate that you will disenfranchise some people. A tough situation.


End of the day, personal responsibility makes things so much more simple.

 

[bigbadwolf]

I actually agree with BigBadWolf. I think these online universities need to be reigned in because they are a huge scam, but it would not be a huge leap to start pointing fingers at not for profit schools that churn out people with no job prospects.

Then if you try and regulate that you will disenfranchise some people. A tough situation.

End of the day, personal responsibility makes things so much more simple.

There's no alternative in the United States. The government is not, in my opinion, going to regulate the industry (despite the report that it intends to do so), and indeed is in many significant ways complicit in the racket. So individuals have to do their due diligence.

Speaking of student loans:

In June of this year, US student loan debt exceeded credit card debt for the first time. Now totaling nearly $850 billion, student loan debt is growing at the rate of $90 billion a year. [1]

Student debt is not just consumer debt. It is the most onerous kind of consumer debt because student borrowers do not receive standard consumer protections. Their loans are undischargable in bankruptcy, usurious penalties are legal, and there is no statute of limitations.

Student loans have become the most lucrative form of debt in the finance industry, Collinge points out, because lenders have the most invasive collection rights and the federally mandated right to impose usurious fees and penalties. The industry is legally able to garnishee wages, tax returns and Social Security and disability payments without so much as a court order.

Which explains the following:

In 2005, Sallie Mae was named by Fortune as the second most profitable company in the US (Microsoft was 18th that year), with its CEO Albert Lord the highest-paid CEO in Washington, D.C., that year. In 2007, the New York Times estimated Lord’s holdings in the company at $450 million. In 2008, he received $4.7 billion in compensation, according to the Washington Post.

Keeping in mind that it is the federal government which has created the legal and regulatory terrain that makes this possible, it is clearly unrealistic to suppose that it will reign in for-profit "schools." Which merely reinforces your point that individuals have to look out for themselves.

 

[coolharvard]

I actually agree with BigBadWolf. I think these online universities need to be reigned in because they are a huge scam, but it would not be a huge leap to start pointing fingers at not for profit schools that churn out people with no job prospects.

Then if you try and regulate that you will disenfranchise some people. A tough situation.


End of the day, personal responsibility makes things so much more simple.

For profit universities are not necessarily online universities. They are different.

 

[TraderJoe]

The students who enroll in these online colleges are perhaps not the smartest people in the world.
The community colleges in New York and California provide an excellent education for tuition rate of $2 K per year. These students turn down this heavily subsidized, fairly high-quality education, of which many of the credits will transfer to a four-year degree at a state universities.
Instead, they prefer to enroll in these online "for-profit" colleges and pay $16 K per year in tuition where they get "A" grade to learn high-school stuff. None of the credits from these online for-profit colleges is transferred to any of the four-year state universities.
They deserve the $70 K debt and job flipping burgers for $9 per hour.

 

[MSFHQ]

For profit universities are not necessarily online universities. They are different.

Yes, sorry, I was not specific in my post. Regardless, for profit and online universities both offer a substandard product IMO. This is not directed at online classes, but at Phoenix, Devry, etc.

 

[Lyosha]

The students who enroll in these online colleges are perhaps not the smartest people in the world.
The community colleges in New York and California provide an excellent education for tuition rate of $2 K per year. These students turn down this heavily subsidized, fairly high-quality education, of which many of the credits will transfer to a four-year degree at a state universities.
Instead, they prefer to enroll in these online "for-profit" colleges and pay $16 K per year in tuition where they get "A" grade to learn high-school stuff. None of the credits from these online for-profit colleges is transferred to any of the four-year state universities.
They deserve the $70 K debt and job flipping burgers for $9 per hour.

Having taken a few (a world history class and physics I and II) classes at my local community college in NY, I can safely say that they were well below the level of regents level coursework in my high school (not to mention AP level coursework..).

 

[bigbadwolf]

NYC area community colleges fill up quickly, and become over capacity (and thus have to reject all applicants past that point).

I think roughly the same situation holds in California, so while both systems might be affordable, this doesn't mean much if access is limited because of the pent-up demand.

Also, because community colleges are open-access and not selective, standards tend not to be high.

 

[MSFHQ]

Yeah, there is a huge demand for community college classes and not enough supply.

I believe Obama pushed for an increase in funding or something.

SAFRA, Recovery Act Benefit Community Colleges, Americas Gateway to the Future: News of the Day | EdLabor Journal | Committee on Education and Labor

 

[coolharvard]

The students who enroll in these online colleges are perhaps not the smartest people in the world.
The community colleges in New York and California provide an excellent education for tuition rate of $2 K per year. These students turn down this heavily subsidized, fairly high-quality education, of which many of the credits will transfer to a four-year degree at a state universities.
Instead, they prefer to enroll in these online "for-profit" colleges and pay $16 K per year in tuition where they get "A" grade to learn high-school stuff. None of the credits from these online for-profit colleges is transferred to any of the four-year state universities.
They deserve the $70 K debt and job flipping burgers for $9 per hour.

Yep. Totally agree.

If you can't get into real 4-year university, community college would be a good investment to at least get a start, and then perhaps get good grades and then trasnfer to 4-year state school after 2 years (and you still get the same diploma and degree as those who start freshman years at the state university).

not sure why this is so hard to understand for those who chose for-profit schools.

 

[coolharvard]

Whoa whoa whoa slow down there tiger. Having taken a few (a world history class and physics I and II) classes at my local community college in NY, I can safely say that they were well below the level of regents level coursework in my high school (not to mention AP level coursework..).

You can't praise them in one breath and condemn for profit institutions for offering about the same in the next.

Also, it is worth noting that according to a documentary that vilifies for-profit education that I recently saw that focuses in on specifically NYC area community colleges as an alternative, NYC area community colleges fill up quickly, and become over capacity (and thus have to reject all applicants past that point).

Right, if those community college courses are substandard, why do you think well-known university system like University of California accepts transfer credits from community college? (some classes can not be transferred, but most can.)

But I do agree that number of students in community colleges are increasing very quickly because human population is growing faster than the growth of colleges.

 

[Lyosha]

Right, if those community college courses are substandard, why do you think well-known university system like University of California accepts transfer credits from community college? (some classes can not be transferred, but most can.)

But I do agree that number of students in community colleges are increasing very quickly because human population is growing faster than the growth of colleges.

I can think of at least three reasons:

1. They have to. Same as with the State University of New York system, all campuses have to honor all credits given by a member of the same system. SUNY Binghamton, last I heard, didn't like this and when I was a senior there there were rumors floating around about it leaving the system and becoming an Ivy league school (I chuckled every time I heard them...). But they're stuck with it. Also with giving exemptions for the foreign language general education requirement to those that got above an 85 on a New York Regents exam in a foreign language (which is really easy... i got a 95 and could only say like 3 sentences in Spanish...). It's kind of a trade off of getting money from the government to getting your university's brand diluted by being forced to accept obviously inferior credits.

2. Only basic level classes are offered at community colleges. Kind of similar to how AP credits are given to those that do good on the test, even though the scope of AP calculus is less than that of college calculus (at a decent enough school...). It is assumed that if a student can get a 5 on the calculus AP, they can fill in the gaps to the information they do not know, and if they don't, then they fail out in the advanced classes that build on top of that information and may then realize that they have to retake calculus to get caught up.

3. The classes for which credits are given do not have substantial impact on the education of the student. i.e. taking Physics I, II and world history (three subjects which I will likely not need to be terribly proficient in, but are on the requirements list because comp sci is a part of the "engineering" school...) at a community college over the summer if you are a computer science major. Once again, "no harm done".

 

[MSFHQ]

1) Many schools accept community college credits, not just fellow state schools.

2) Community College is junior college. You are only supposed to take 100-200 level classes.

3) I think the intensity and depth of a 100 History class at a community college is about the same as a large, private institution. When I went to Syracuse I had grad students teaching most lower level classes. Nothing like paying a for a private school and having students teach you.

 

[rajanS]

i think people misunderstand the reason why students choose to go to community college. It is cheaper. Hands down. Atleast for international students. Would you rather pay 3000 for a course at a big university or pay 3000 for 2 courses at a community college? That makes a big difference. Many of my friends went to community college for the first two years and got their associates and moved on to bigger Universities. These bigger Universities actually came to the college to recruit top students...i.e wharton etc. Also, i have a friend who currently works at Susquehanna after having graduated from community college. I think it is how you apply your self that matters more than the name of the University. I don't think that someone who graduated from an ivy league is significantly smarter than someone who hasn't. When I look at many top Universities, they have students who graduated from some Universities i have never heard of

 

[iniesta]

i think people misunderstand the reason why students choose to go to community college. It is cheaper. Hands down. Atleast for international students. Would you rather pay 3000 for a course at a big university or pay 3000 for 2 courses at a community college? That makes a big difference. Many of my friends went to community college for the first two years and got their associates and moved on to bigger Universities. These bigger Universities actually came to the college to recruit top students...i.e wharton etc. Also, i have a friend who currently works at Susquehanna after having graduated from community college. I think it is how you apply your self that matters more than the name of the University. I don't think that someone who graduated from an ivy league is significantly smarter than someone who hasn't. When I look at many top Universities, they have students who graduated from some chi chi chong University in India or China. Clearly, they are smart.

wow

 

[rajanS]

wow

i didn't mean it like that. gosh i think what i said came out wrongly... i meant ppl go to universities all over the world. its what you learn thats important. I know many top CEOs who are not ivy league grads and yet they have ivys work under them. Example, the president of the Asian Development Bank went to Asian Institute of Technology in Thailand. It first started off as a small time University. Also I went to a school in a village in india and it was really really tough. This was 10 years ago. the price of the course was just 150 rupees but we covered lots of math that I have never learned here. The name of the university was anamalai venkatawaran chinnapalai university. i dont even know if i spelled it correctly. But it was in a village. but some students over there were very smart. Also, one of the greatest mathematican srinivasa ramanujan taught at that university in my village. But clearly even companies in india recruit only from IIT or IIM. i just think its how you apply at the end. But yea i didn't mean to have any negative connotation associated with what I said. So I am sorry

 

[rajanS]

Yes, sorry, I was not specific in my post. Regardless, for profit and online universities both offer a substandard product IMO. This is not directed at online classes, but at Phoenix, Devry, etc.

Are these Universities really preceived in a wrong way? I think unless someone actually goes to that University it would be hard to judge the quality of it. At the end of the day its job placement. Devry has 90% placement in project related work for companies and many students are earning 60k +. If they weren't good at placing, then their stock value would be in the decline wouldn't it?

 

[alain]

If they weren't good at placing, then their stock value would be in the decline wouldn't it?

The stock value has very little to do with placing.