Engineering, Cubicles and Finance

[fcandeli]

Hi guys,
this is my first post.
Let me introduce myself. I am Italian, I earned an Msc in electronics engineering and a second Msc from a uk university in software engineering, working on a machine learning enhanced compiler. I have worked for a major semiconductor design company for a couple of years, working with and on Electronics Design Automation tool, writing code that consumed more energy on a server farm than an aircraft (just to give an idea of computational power involved).
Three years ago I entered job market and started to know about FE and its high salaries but at that time I thought it was about passion, not money.
Later I realized that in design of semiconductor and EDA industry this is the situation for engineers:

- A cubicle of 2mx2m for the first 10 years and than 4mx4m to end career
- Hundreds of employees that work for less than 3 hours a day (considering time spent
taking coffees and chatting and reading internet pages)
- Salary: starting with $50000 an ending career at $120000
- Chances to go to managment near zero for engineers, career is for MBA

I am starting to think to try a career in finance but I do want to have your opinion about quantitative finance.
My greatest fear is to end up again in the same situation as I was in semiconductor and EDA companies.
I do want a job where a person that works 12 hours a day without leaving its desk (trying to reduce amount of soda to reduce time at wc to avoid losing concentration) gets a salary that is twice or thrice that of lazy chaps watching football on internet, reading news and having 2 hours lunch break.
Is this what I am going to find in a quant job?
Do people that write code fast, have good solutions to problems and stick to their chair get big bucks?
Do you people work in decent places? I mean a quant with 10 years experience has his own office?
Should I forget about this kind of dreams and just accept that people in engineering (financial as well) are considered like plumbers and electricians and hence at 29 decide to go to business admin to earn as much as my brother (30yo) that is a neurologist consultant with 300K at the end of the year (in UK)?

 

[Aditya Chitral]

Well, with only one comment.
What you do is not just for a paycheck.

 

[doug reich]

I would say it is high stress, high pay. It also depends on where you are in the hierarchy; if you are a trader, you will have to avoid bathroom breaks during intense times. If you are a programmer in the back office, it will resemble your engineering job.

I would suggest reading some of the career guides and "stories by quants" listed here: QuantNetwork - Financial Engineering Forum - View Single Post - Master reading list for MFE

 

[fcandeli]

Thanks for the answers.
I have some more questions.
I am reading Deraman's book but I have just started.
I am wondering.... what does really do a Quant?
I mean do you write code or do you think about new theories?
From some threads I read that people discuss how much a math Phd could worth.
I have been in academics for some time and I know that new theories take months to be developed and being a programmer I know that in a day normally a coder writes no more than a couple of serious script.
I have seen job ads for 250k dollar requiring knowledge of C++ and derivatives.
What would this programmer do?
Why being in font office is so hard?
Nobody can write in ten minutes a new model nor a new function.
To implement a new class it takes near an hour, if you do not want to have serious bugs.
What do you do, write some fancy VB interfaces or update on the fly a macro or change a constant value in an immense code or find a bug in a class that is calculating a price that someone need immediately to deal with?
The two requirements of Advanced math and fast coding are in contradiction.
First takes months for meaningful results, the second can be done but it is no more than a quick workaround.
I do not understand the amount of money, except thinking that a Quant is no more than a trader with a math background, that at the end of the day have to sell a product.
Please be patient, I do not know how things work there.

 

[fcandeli]

Again....
I have seen questions for interview.
I was asked to do microprocessor design to solve the problem of Die Hard 3 of the jar and the fountain.
My mistake was to try to solve (I hadn't seen the movie at that time) it quickly, while it could take some time near 10-15 minute (I have a IQ of 132) but I thought I would have spoiled the interview.
Do they ask that stuff to check how fast thinking you are and your approach or it is Quant job like that?
An example of a typical day as a quant could help me understand (especially where do big bucks come from).

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Get some of these
1) What do quant do ? A guide by Mark Joshi. Download
2) Paul & Dominic's Guide to Quant Careers Version 2.0 Download
3) Career in Financial Markets - a guide by efinancialcareers. Download
4) Interview Preparation Guide by Michael Page: Quantitative Analysis. Download
5) Interview Preparation Guide by Michael Page: Quantitative Structuring. Download

 

[John]

for the most parts, the cubicles will be replaced by long rows of trading floor-style desks

 

[triethanolamine]

That engineers without MBAs don't run companies, and that MBAs without engineering expertise do run (engineering intensive) companies is a recent evil that will I hope soon be done away with. But if money is your goal your engineering background will get you in to a fancy business school.

As an engineer you're really working. What's the real utility of a trader? As Warren Buffet says, "100% tax on capital gains of less than a year."

But FE's can also work in designing new securities. Look at the great job of mortgage CDOs.

 

[fcandeli]

Will Smith in pursuit of happiness "Tell me two things, what do you do and how you do it?"
I think that money are really important.
In any case, why thinking about finance if not for money?

Is there by chance a thread already started where Quant salary is discussed?
I'd really like to understand a little bit more on this.
I have read from Micheal Pages's Quantitative research that a salary for a 5+ experienced can go up to £100 with 100% bonus!!! This would give a good reason to study math finance after work and then start apply for quant jobs in London (indians gets all the green cards these days).
Can you guy confirm that data?

I know it might not be the place to ask this but why not going straight to trading?
Isn't that the place were money are produced?
What do stop people like some of you in the forum that are already inside banks to move to trading?
Is trading so hard to do and have a job?
Is base salary lower and more up to trader to earn money?
Is it about financial security at the end of the month?
I do not know any trader but I have always thought that people with background in economics are not that clever (likewise I think about doctors and politicians).
Never being in a trading floor, I have only seen "Wall Street" and some other movies on wall street, so I do not have idea of what a trader does, maybe I am a mercenary but after 11 years of maths and coding I do not like it anymore, I have lost that passion of undergraduate.
Do you do quant jobs cause you like models and math?
I have read that a pro for being in front office is learning to trade, now my point is, are trader ex quant? What does it take to be a trader? Are trader MBA's or sales people? What is their strongest skill and qualification?
Cause I am definitely border line and can be both introvert in front of a screen and extrovert with people.
I am posting here to understand if and what career I could chase in finance.
Thanks for your patience

 

[MNB]

fcandeli, I worked in a small team trading exotic products. Whilst everyone in the team had similar basic responsibilities, the combination of their personalities was interesting. In our four man trading team, there was one trader, one trader-quant (myself), one quant-trader and one quant, if that makes any sense.

At different times, each personality came to the fore. I will always remember one occasion which demonstrated something of the mind of the "pure quant". In a market which was dropping like a stone, he suggested that we cover our shorts because he had discovered through sound, complex mathematical modeling that the securities were undervalued. We relented and closed some, but the market kept dropping. It cost us a lot of cash!

Anyhow, my point is that some quants may not be comfortable with the dynamics and irrationality of the market. Flow traders get beaten down by the market all the time, many exotic derivatives traders get beaten down some of the time (and when they do they tend to take a lot more pain than the flow traders) - it's how you react that determines whether or not you can cut it as a trader. It's certainly not for everyone, because each time you lose you are actually getting poorer!

 

[DominiConnor]

fcandeli has clearly demonstrated why so many "phyiscal" engineers want to become financial engineers. I hear variations on this theme frequently.

But wise people here have said that this is not the same as knowing you will be happier in this line of work, indeed this is not a single work type, just like any other occupation.

My advice is to you is to meet some quants.
Try to work out 4 things from these meetings:
1: Is this kind of work for me ?
2: Am I similar to these people ?
3: Do I want to be similar to these people ?
4: Could I work 12 hours a day with them ?

There is a finance focus in London soon, I assume you're in Britain ?

 

[junniemartin]

I would say it is high stress, high pay. It also depends on where you are in the hierarchy; if you are a trader, you will have to avoid bathroom breaks during intense times. If you are a programmer in the back office, it will resemble your engineering job.

I would suggest reading some of the career guides and "stories by quants" listed here: QuantNetwork - Financial Engineering Forum - View Single Post - Master reading list for MFE

Just like what my friend told me... more stress at work more money at the end of the month... Well, that's a fact...