Goldman (N.Y. City vs Hong Kong)

[D Serg]

hi all,
I'm based in SG and work for some European bank and I'm very tired because of the city and not so challenging working environment here.
I have tried to explore opportunities outside the country and some recruiters proposed me to apply for positions with Goldman in Hong Kong. On the other side, I think Hong Kong is quite unclean and also not so challenging, so I want to try to get into Goldman N.Y.
If you worked in HK and NY how may you compare opportunities for growth?
If you are from GS - what is there in GS Hong Kong?
Also interesting to hear the difference between SG, HK and NY together.

Thanks.

 

[bluechimp]

People would be able to give better advice if you elaborate on:

• What are you doing currently in Singapore?
• What are you looking to do in another job?
• What specifically about the city that tires you down? What do you look for in a city?
• What specifically do you mean about not being challenged? Examples?

I made the move the other way around by way of said firm, but in order to transition to the buyside.

 

[D Serg]

People would be able to give better advice if you elaborate on:

• What are you doing currently in Singapore?
• What are you looking to do in another job?
• What specifically about the city that tires you down? What do you look for in a city?
• What specifically do you mean about not being challenged? Examples?

I made the move the other way around by way of said firm, but in order to transition to the buyside.

>What are you doing currently in Singapore?
Smth related to quant dev job

>What are you looking to do in another job?
math, algo

>What specifically about the city that tires you down? What do you look for in a city?
Small and very relaxing. Education is not good. Zero geniuses around and not so many clever people. Some Asians are unfriendly towards foreigners (in newspapers).

>What specifically do you mean about not being challenged? Examples?
Quant computer science projects, high frequency trading with high degree of optimization, usage of math and algo very deeply
It will be ideal for me to join GS in NYC, but I think banks like SocGen are the same what I have currently.

 

[marina]

hi all,
I think Hong Kong is quite unclean and also not so challenging, so I want to try to get into Goldman N.Y.

Do you think NY is cleaner than HK?

 

[D Serg]

Do you think NY is cleaner than HK?

huh! interesting question. after SG everything may look unclean.
I plan to visit HK next year if I continue to be in SG, so I will be able to check.
But many my friends from there say that it's unclean... and some of them live in tall buildings on the 70th floor - not so usual for me.
and of course, apartments there usually very small.

 

[D Serg]

I made the move the other way around by way of said firm, but in order to transition to the buyside.

Sorry, is your real name Linus? What is your real experience, how long are you here and what you do in Singapore?
I may tell you for truth, that when you are near with the peak of the mountain in what you do, there are no many opportunities in Singapore.

Also I do agree that for many Asians this city suits good.

 

[bluechimp]

Right. Thanks for the answers. (They're quite telling, really.)

To put it bluntly, I believe the major areas of growth in Asia will be corporate finance (i.e. traditional investment banking activities) and flow trading. Exotics will eventually catch up, but the current low transaction volumes prohibits it from being the key focus for investment banks. As such, talent still flow primarily to front-office positions (sorry, even desk quants are still slightly removed from this distinction). This might partially explain your frustration with the caliber of people surrounding you.

Let me give you an example: a good friend of mine interviewed with Algo Trading desk of a major European bank in HK. He's top-notch, but had no prior programming experience. Having secured another offer, he brought up this technical deficiency to the interviewer. The MD calmly said: "Don't worry. We leave the programming stuff to back-office." (or something to this effect). This is indicative of the attitude, focus, and perhaps to some extent expected compensation of quant careers in Asia -- at least for now. You might see some pockets of opportunities (I know GETCO is aggressively recruiting for their Singapore office), but they are not widespread.

I don't think there is harm in trying to lateral to other places, especially if you find the people you interview with to be capable.

Disclaimer: I understand that my observation above is casual and by no means conclusive. Should anyone with more data points care to add to this discussion, I shall happily defer my suggestions.

 

[D Serg]

"Don't worry. We leave the programming stuff to back-office."

As I'm from Europe by myself, I think that it's because of European banks and most of them in SG.
I haven't seen any Quant positions for Goldman of J.P. Morgan here.
Major part of Europe and Europeans are very rural.
They are making money on a simple trading strategies, but not on a HF-Econophysics-Rocket-Science-strategies.
Some interesting opportunities may exist in UK, but a few. Also not so many in Switzerland.
That is why I want to try New York.

 

[Tsotne]

On the other side, I think Hong Kong is quite unclean and also not so challenging

HK is really unclean but who told you that you cannot find a challenging environment there? There are lots of opportunities of growth as well. Depends on position what you mean. I guess you are asking where to move from your position point of view.

 

[Steven]

"Let me give you an example: a good friend of mine interviewed with Algo Trading desk of a major European bank in HK. He's top-notch, but had no prior programming experience."

So what does you friend study?

 

[DominiConnor]

The level of pollution in HK is rather higher than NY, if that is a major concern to you personally, it is an easy choice.

HK tends to be a better place for front office work than SG, though that is an average not a guarantee.

It is the case with most large firms that the 'thinking' is mostly done in in NY, London or Chicago, with the 'doing' happening where it needs to happen. However the right level of granularity is not the firm, but the group, if you are trying to work out the quality of the work. A given business unit may do it's thinking in London, with trading mostly in HK, or the other way round. Some larger groups distribute the thinking across multiple centres, but more a more common structure is that thinking happens in city A, and the quants and systems people in cities B,C are basically local support to compensate for distance and time zones.
Some people find that being in the B,C part of the group is less interesting, and the politics may be that you get paid less for working more hours, or not... It depends, I'm just alerting you to things to think and ask about.

So your decision should not be "GS HK or NY", it should be "GS tail or GS dog".

The nature of GS is that there's more dog in NY than anywhere else, so if you don't know the exact situation your rational assumption is that anywhere else is tail.
But there are lots of exceptions, useful simple tests when trying to evaluate this are where the boss of the team is based, and more objectively how many staff are in each location.
But...
Just to make it more complicated (and realistic), a likely situation is not "do you want to work in GS dog or tail" ? but "if the only job open to you at GS is in the tail of that group, would you still take it ?"

 

[D Serg]

Thanks Dominic, I think your post is quite useful. Also many youngsters may now see the picture: join Morgans doesn't say anything, more important what kind of work do they have in the region where you going to join.

 

[DominiConnor]

Glad to be of help, and you raise another interesting issue that gets me involved as a careers advisor...

Do you take a good job at an OK bank, or a less good job at at a better bank ?

That's one of the single most common questions that people come to me with, and part of the way I break it down is as above.
The dog/tail case is something I look for since it gives a better model of the quality of the job, and even though job choice is some of the most important decisions you ever make, often the quality of information is lower than buying a TV on Ebay.

 

[Joy Pathak]

Good job at a decent bank over a mediocre job at a big name. Any day.

 

[goldski]

lol Applying is one thing... Debate this when you GET IN.

Hong Kong GS is easier to get in that GS NY. You better be well connected to get into any front office position at any bank in NY from Singapore since there are already several very well qualified americans here.

 

[lonely]

@goldski

looking at my 2.5 score ...that was the best I could come up with... lol