Help! Advice?

[pingu]

I appreciate that. I can't just apply to the jobs unfortunately because despite my 3.9 GPA and numerous leadership positions, every trading and sales & trading internship has either rejected me or never got back to me.

Ah, you want to go to sales and trading. That really narrows the choices. I wish luck on that. It's not impossible but very unlikely, at least in the immediate future (unless you trade your own money).

If I were a trader, I will be shorting "your position" now.

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

Should I delay graduation by 1.5-2 years to double major (in computer science or math) or should I just finish the pre-requisites and enter an MFE? I'm getting so many differing opinions by people so I really want to ask it here because I know that the majority of people here have more experience and are probably wiser about this than my advisers. and family (who are not in finance).

 

[C S]

Ok so you think I should double major instead of go straight for the MFE? Can you give me your opinion on why you think this is the best option because others here are telling me to take the MFE pre-requisites and then go for the MFE without spending the money double majoring. If I can get almost straight As and do well in all my pre-med courses (As including Organic Chemistry and Physics), I know I have the ability to buckle down and study hard for quantitative course work, so I'm not at all concerned about that. What I don't understand is why people on this forum think it's a good idea to throw down $450k for med school when my heart has changed on this. I don't understand why you all implying I don't have a realistic shot in this field given how my whole college career was based around going to med school. I've done a lot of research including talking to traders in person, and other people in other fields within finance. Over the past year, I've joined my college's finance club and this year I have a position on the executive board. The reason I have not formally made my decision until this year was because I wanted to make sure I have a realistic shot in pursuing quantitative finance before forgoing medicine all together. Based on the majority of responses, it seems you all think I'm just a total loser that has no chance and I really can't grasp an understanding of why. My situation may not be ideal but it is what it is. I guess I'd rather have you all be blunt and honest with me than sugar coating my situation.

I don't think most people here have said you should go to med school. If you don't want to, then fine, don't. You have your reasons which we can only partially understand. At the same time, it's not possible to give you fully applicable advice either, given this lack of understanding or information about your situation.

I do think I can give you some valuable signal among the noise however. It's up to you to see what you can make of it and how to properly weight all the factors that go into your decision.

1) The level of instruction you will receive in MFE will be far inferior to what you get in your undergrad. Note this is a generality. I'm not going to go so far as to say a basic stats course taught as part of Princeton's MS in Finance is bad compared to one taught at Podunk U. However, MFE programs are essentially cram courses. They are useful for those with already a fair amount of quantitative sophistication but of minimal use for those without (imagine learning only what you could have learned in one month in a good undergrad class but it takes you all semester in MFE because it's thrown all at you at once and some of it sticks and some of it falls off). So on a pure economic level, I can almost guarantee that the dollar value of the education you are actually receiving in MFE is lower than what you would get at your college.

2) Doing well in quantitative courses isn't solely a function of hard work, as you seem to think. Service courses are often structured that way, and yes, pre-med required courses like physics, calculus, etc., are service courses. Upper-level quantitative courses will not be structured that way, and incidentally, above average students in computer science, math, etc., skip those service sources and start with the advanced courses as freshmen or sophomores. Keep in mind you're competing with people who have something like 8 years advantage on you, if you consider that they've typically been interested in things like programming and math since middle school.

I think that's pretty much all the advice I'm up to giving. I'm not here to crush your dreams. I'm not even here to instill a dose of reality. I'm just like a speed bump. With speed bumps, it's a bit mysterious why they exist when most people just fly over them anyway. But they get people to at least put the foot over the brake and maybe even press down a bit.

 

[manojv]

My wife is a doctor too. Both my children are studying to become doctors. I must have half a dozen doctors in my family . True,there are a lot of doctors saying not to go into medicine, but IMO, these are docs who were used to the good ole days before managed care. I personally would not place too much opinion on their gripping. Obamacare may disappear along with Obama next year. Medicine is still a good paying and respectable profession (for specialists). Psychiatry would be a good specialty for you if you were to continue in medicine. Lots of demand there.

Anyway, since you have your mind set on finance, I suggest applying to an MBA program from a top school. They might find your background interesting. An MBA from a top school could be your ticket into a finance job. (I know this is an MFE board so no hate please!, it's JMHO). I know a Managing Director who was a history major, got into programming, then got an MBA from NYU. So you are as not scr3wd as you think.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

Obamacare may disappear

Is this good or bad?

docs who were used to the good ole days before managed care.

What's wrong these days.

 

[manojv]

Obamacare was written by the insurance companies for their benefit. It's a terrible system for doctors and patients. It's lead to the consolidation of insurers and hospital groups. Whatever happened to anti-trust in this country ? We now have markets where one or two insurance companies has a near monopoly/duopoly. Leading to lower reimbursements to doctors and higher deductibles for patients. Doctors are being forced to join larger hospital groups just to survive. These large groups are more bottom line driven then independent practices.

Now 'quality' of care is being used as a weapon against doctors. How does one measure quality of care in older sick patients with multiple conditions? Patients are not all the same, some need more treatment than others. The quality metrics these insurers are using are dubious and IMO are used simply to deny care (and increase profits for themselves).

Hopefully Obamacare will fail the same way HMOs failed in the 90s.

We need to breakup the big insurers and hospital groups and let the free market work. Patients should be free to shop for medical care and hospitals need to compete with each other for cost and outcomes.

And those people that think we need a single payer system, should look to the UK where their national health system is falling apart and doctors are on strike. Single payer is just a monopoly run by politicians.

...With all it's problems, I still feel medicine is one of the few personally rewarding, and respected professions there are.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

Obamacare was written by the insurance companies for their benefit. It's a terrible system for doctors and patients. It's lead to the consolidation of insurers and hospital groups. Whatever happened to anti-trust in this country ? We now have markets where one or two insurance companies has a near monopoly/duopoly. Leading to lower reimbursements to doctors and higher deductibles for patients. Doctors are being forced to join larger hospital groups just to survive. These large groups are more bottom line driven then independent practices.

Now 'quality' of care is being used as a weapon against doctors. How does one measure quality of care in older sick patients with multiple conditions? Patients are not all the same, some need more treatment than others. The quality metrics these insurers are using are dubious and IMO are used simply to deny care (and increase profits for themselves).

Hopefully Obamacare will fail the same way HMOs failed in the 90s.

We need to breakup the big insurers and hospital groups and let the free market work. Patients should be free to shop for medical care and hospitals need to compete with each other for cost and outcomes.

And those people that think we need a single payer system, should look to the UK where their national health system is falling apart and doctors are on strike. Single payer is just a monopoly run by politicians.

...With all it's problems, I still feel medicine is one of the few personally rewarding, and respected professions there are.

Ok, I'll bite

I live in the Netherlands and I think it is reasonably well organized and where _everyone_ is insured, And UK NHS is also pretty good.

Obama is trying to bring US medicare into the 21st century.

...With all its problems, I still feel medicine is one of the few personally rewarding, and respected professions there are

Self-praise?


You don't have my vote on this one; the average GP (IMO) has not been trained to analyse problems but does give you lots of pills until they don't work anymore. Then she panicks and refers you to a specialist.
I don't trust doctors' analytical ability in general. In fairness, medicine is not (yet) a science.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

We need to [...] let the free market work

Stock reaction. There is no such thing as a free market. But you believe there is?
In a 'free market' the customer has no control over prices.

It's been tried; the result is 50 million uninsured Americans.

 

[Tom Sun]

I appreciate that. I can't just apply to the jobs unfortunately because despite my 3.9 GPA and numerous leadership positions, every trading and sales & trading internship has either rejected me or never got back to me.

How many firms did you apply to?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

OP can certainly get a job in finance that can afford a good entry to a long career. But it may not be the high flying trading, front office type that she is aspired to.
There are plenty of solid jobs in risk management, regulation that she should not overlook. Read what @Ken Abbott has to say about those jobs and acquire the kills he mentions.
Transfer to a public university and take the math/stats/programming courses required then apply to a one year FRM program.

 

[manojv]

Here is the wonderful UK NHS:
NHS problems 'at their worst since 1990s' - BBC News
EXCLUSIVE: GP strike bid by family doctors...Exhausted GPs warn of surgery collapse

IMO, Forcing doctors and hospitals to treat patients for less while paying fat bonuses to insurance company executives is not the way to fix the uninsured problem.

Most countries that socialized medicine also socialized the cost of a medical education. What we have here is a capitalist system for medical education and a sudo-socialist model for medical reimbursements.

"the average GP (IMO) has not been trained to analyse problems but does give you lots of pills until they don't work anymore. Then she panicks and refers you to a specialist. I don't trust doctors' analytical ability in general. In fairness, medicine is not (yet) a science."

Most GPs have at least 12 years of training. Foreign grads even more because they have to repeat residency. No doctor passes residency without being able to diagnose diseases. Medicine is an art not a science. Try reading a medical textbook one day when you get bored.

Insurance companies dictate what they will pay for the doctors time. The doctor has no say in matter due to near monopolies in most areas. They are forced to see more patients in less time. Most patients feel unsatisfied if they don't come away with a prescription. Patient satisfaction is another 'quality' metric that is being imposed on doctors. They may refer to a specialist because of the liability involved. This is a litigious society after all.

Why doctors hate ObamaCare

Health Care Providers are Opting-Out of Obamacare Exchange Plans | Insights

 

[alain]

Ok, I'll bite

I live in the Netherlands and I think it is reasonably well organized and where _everyone_ is insured, And UK NHS is also pretty good.

Obama is trying to bring US medicare into the 21st century.

...With all its problems, I still feel medicine is one of the few personally rewarding, and respected professions there are

Self-praise?


You don't have my vote on this one; the average GP (IMO) has not been trained to analyse problems but does give you lots of pills until they don't work anymore. Then she panicks and refers you to a specialist.
I don't trust doctors' analytical ability in general. In fairness, medicine is not (yet) a science.

@Daniel Duffy , I don't know if you are familiar with medical education system in the US. It's very different than most of the countries and with a high barrier of entry. They have been trained to analyze problems. Remember, the average MD in the US starts practicing at the age of 30. That's longer than the average PhD.

Most of my family are doctors or are in associated with the medical business in the US. I also have a lot of friends that are doctor. Most of them echo @manojv opinion but they still do it and have a good living. If you have a private practice, you will do even better.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

Daniel, I don't know if you are familiar with medical education system in the US. It's very different than most of the countries and with a high barrier of entry. They have been trained to analyze problems. Remember, the average MD in the US starts practicing at the age of 30. That's longer than the average PhD.

Most of my family are doctors or are in associated with the medical business in the US. I also have a lot of friends that are doctor. Most of them echo @manojv opinion but they still do it and have a good living. If you have a private practice, you will do even better.

It's very different in some other countries though.

Alain,
I have Colombian in-laws in NYC who are doctors and I know they had to study for 7 years after they finished in Bogota.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

Here is the wonderful UK NHS:
NHS problems 'at their worst since 1990s' - BBC News
EXCLUSIVE: GP strike bid by family doctors...Exhausted GPs warn of surgery collapse

IMO, Forcing doctors and hospitals to treat patients for less while paying fat bonuses to insurance company executives is not the way to fix the uninsured problem.

Most countries that socialized medicine also socialized the cost of a medical education. What we have here is a capitalist system for medical education and a sudo-socialist model for medical reimbursements.

"the average GP (IMO) has not been trained to analyse problems but does give you lots of pills until they don't work anymore. Then she panicks and refers you to a specialist. I don't trust doctors' analytical ability in general. In fairness, medicine is not (yet) a science."

Most GPs have at least 12 years of training. Foreign grads even more because they have to repeat residency. No doctor passes residency without being able to diagnose diseases. Medicine is an art not a science. Try reading a medical textbook one day when you get bored.

Insurance companies dictate what they will pay for the doctors time. The doctor has no say in matter due to near monopolies in most areas. They are forced to see more patients in less time. Most patients feel unsatisfied if they don't come away with a prescription. Patient satisfaction is another 'quality' metric that is being imposed on doctors. They may refer to a specialist because of the liability involved. This is a litigious society after all.

Why doctors hate ObamaCare

Health Care Providers are Opting-Out of Obamacare Exchange Plans | Insights

 

[Daniel Duffy]

Most countries that socialized medicine also socialized the cost of a medical education. What we have here is a capitalist system for medical education and a pseudo-socialist model for medical reimbursements.

I prefer to socialize healthcare. But hey, I'm European. I like the Nordic/Dutch model.

A doctor is just another job in my book. Why should they have a status different from other professions?

What I really hate is debt socialization.

Here's the story in the Republic of Ireland (which I also know something about)

We have long known that prices charged for drugs in Ireland are many times greater than the U.K., Spain and elsewhere.
The Sunday Business Post has a report today that says that medicines in Ireland are 12 times more expensive here than in the U.K.
Many people in Ireland must be either doing without their prescribed drugs (asthma inhaler 80 euro a pop, for example) due to the cost, or buying them and doing without other essentials.

Something rotten here and Ireland is very capitalist.

 

[Alexandre Chretien]

To OP, little questions followed by suggestions and ideas.
Not here to bash on you, just asking questions you could expect during an interview.

1- Knowing you wanted to go to med school, why would you take a Psychology major? Why not Biology or Biochem?
2- Knowing you didn't get into any S&T positions last time you apply, why do you think an MFE or pre-MFE would give you a shot?
3- What have you done since you know you want to be in the Financial Markets world to increase your knowledge on the subject (besides joining a finance club)
4- What are the courses you are taking this semester? I assume it is loaded with math and economics and computer science, knowing this is your dream job and you have done your research on how to get to S&T.

Ideas :
1- What about taking the CFA?
2- Start trading your own money?
3- Take as much math and programming as possible.
4- Would you be willing to do anything else than S&T? What about Wealth mgmt, banking or others?

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

To OP, little questions followed by suggestions and ideas.
Not here to bash on you, just asking questions you could expect during an interview.

1- Knowing you wanted to go to med school, why would you take a Psychology major? Why not Biology or Biochem?
2- Knowing you didn't get into any S&T positions last time you apply, why do you think an MFE or pre-MFE would give you a shot?
3- What have you done since you know you want to be in the Financial Markets world to increase your knowledge on the subject (besides joining a finance club)
4- What are the courses you are taking this semester? I assume it is loaded with math and economics and computer science, knowing this is your dream job and you have done your research on how to get to S&T.

Ideas :
1- What about taking the CFA?
2- Start trading your own money?
3- Take as much math and programming as possible.
4- Would you be willing to do anything else than S&T? What about Wealth mgmt, banking or others?

1. There are Dance majors that get into medical school. You do not have to be a Biology major to get into medical school. MOST of the pre-meds at my school are psychology majors, in fact.
2. I don't know if an MFE would increase my chances of getting into S &T that's why I'm on this forum asking about it .
3. I've done plenty.
4. Nope I am enrolled in plenty of math and other psychology courses to complete this major. My good friend just got an S& T offer and never touched a programming course. She is a Philosophy major. If I need to take the pre-requisites for an MFE, then I'll be more then happy to do so.
Any more questions?
I'm only interested in S& T and prop trading. I would consider banking but my dream is to go into trading.
Yes, I'm going to start trading my own money ASAP. From what I've gathered, most traders told me the CFA is not necessary. Down the line, I'll probably try to obtain it anyway though.
Also, I am very much against the socialization of healthcare and that factor alone is the most common reason why doctors urged me not to go to medical school but I really need advice and help so I'd rather not turn this thread into a political debate about socialism.

 

[QuantitativeDreamer]

OP can certainly get a job in finance that can afford a good entry to a long career. But it may not be the high flying trading, front office type that she is aspired to.
There are plenty of solid jobs in risk management, regulation that she should not overlook. Read what @Ken Abbott has to say about those jobs and acquire the kills he mentions.
Transfer to a public university and take the math/stats/programming courses required then apply to a one year FRM program.

Thank you for your encouragement and being so uplifting about my situation. You make me feel like I didn't ruin my entire life. Even though there are solid jobs in risk management, I really really really want to go into trading and I'll do anything I have to do get there.

 

[Tom Sun]

1. There are Dance majors that get into medical school. You do not have to be a Biology major to get into medical school. MOST of the pre-meds at my school are psychology majors, in fact.
2. I don't know if an MFE would increase my chances of getting into S &T that's why I'm on this forum asking about it .
3. I've done plenty.
4. Nope I am enrolled in plenty of math and other psychology courses to complete this major. My good friend just got an S& T offer and never touched a programming course. She is a Philosophy major. If I need to take the pre-requisites for an MFE, then I'll be more then happy to do so.
Any more questions?
I'm only interested in S& T and prop trading. I would consider banking but my dream is to go into trading.
Yes, I'm going to start trading my own money ASAP. From what I've gathered, most traders told me the CFA is not necessary. Down the line, I'll probably try to obtain it anyway though.
Also, I am very much against the socialization of healthcare and that factor alone is the most common reason why doctors urged me not to go to medical school but I really need advice and help so I'd rather not turn this thread into a political debate about socialism.

If you're set on trading, then go for a prop trading firm. They churn through a lot of traders. Barrier of entry isn't really that high. If you don't have experience they'll probably get a capital deposit from you. I sent an cold email to a partner at a prop trading firm in Toronto and basically got back saying they will take me with a 5k deposit. You have to perform from the get-go though.

EDIT: Don't apply online, network and do cold email.

 

[Alexandre Chretien]

1. There are Dance majors that get into medical school. You do not have to be a Biology major to get into medical school. MOST of the pre-meds at my school are psychology majors, in fact.
2. I don't know if an MFE would increase my chances of getting into S &T that's why I'm on this forum asking about it .
3. I've done plenty.
4. Nope I am enrolled in plenty of math and other psychology courses to complete this major. My good friend just got an S& T offer and never touched a programming course. She is a Philosophy major. If I need to take the pre-requisites for an MFE, then I'll be more then happy to do so.
Any more questions?
I'm only interested in S& T and prop trading. I would consider banking but my dream is to go into trading.
Yes, I'm going to start trading my own money ASAP. From what I've gathered, most traders told me the CFA is not necessary. Down the line, I'll probably try to obtain it anyway though.
Also, I am very much against the socialization of healthcare and that factor alone is the most common reason why doctors urged me not to go to medical school but I really need advice and help so I'd rather not turn this thread into a political debate about socialism.

I was asking my first question because it is a bit odd for me. Where I am from, people getting in med school usually take Bio related subjects.

Can you give us the detail of the math you have taken so far or are taking right now? Perhaps we can guide you on what are the next steps in this area.

It is true you don't need a specific background to start working in S&T.
To do some quantitative modelling/trading though, you need a very strong knowledge of programming and mathematics.

Do you want to do any type of trading or is quantitative trading what you are really into?