India's educational system

[bigbadwolf]

I can, however, show the scale of visible corruption. Why do you think roads are constructed every 2-3 years in India, and after every rain, the road gets washed away.

Reason : Poor quality of mixture used on road. Very limited usage of coal tar. Benefit of getting contract to construct road every 2-3 years.

Same in Pakistan. In the buildings the contractors always cheat on the sand-cement mixture (sand is cheap, cement expensive), and cheat on the metal girding. So occasionally new apartment buildings collapse even before being inhabited. I shudder to think what would happen if there was a major earthquake in a city like Karachi. The general point is that with endemic corruption, nothing works. The traffic system doesn't, education doesn't, nor the electric supply, nor water supply. Whenever there is rain in Karachi, the city gets flooded: no drainage system. After over 60 years of independence, it's a pretty thin excuse to blame anyone else but yourself. The system of corruption, nepotism, incompetence, and client-patron social system goes back centuries in the Indian subcontinent. The modernity that's on display is a thin veneer, poor camouflage. Look at the fiasco -- the corruption and incompetence -- with the recent Commonwealth games in India.

 

[Pragyesh]

Your logic is the dumbest ever. Just because someone isn't caught does not mean it does not happen; the best example are the ministers in India. Tell me how many ministers are convicted in India. Since many ministers have not been caught, can you say most of them are honest?

Well Mr Smart, by extension of your logic even the admissions to MIT, Harvard, Staford etc. are rigged. Just because people at these colleges have never been caught does not mean that they are not corrupt!!!!!

I also have doubts whether you have ever lived in India. You must be smart enough that even the police and CBI are corrupt, so those officials can easily get away by paying ransoms/bribes to them.

Dude I have been living in India for the past 24 years and you don't need to educate me about the level of corruption in India. I can narrate a couple of anecdotes from my own life to illustrate the point. But you don't seem to get the point that all these examples of yours do not support your assertion regarding corruption in the entrance process of IITs and IIMs.

 

[Avinash Burra]

@rishab dhar, you have made some pertinent and intelligent points in previous posts on other threads, but you are steering every conversation on quantnet towards the situation in India - which seems to be your only frame of reference. This thread is about Chinese students being duped by unscrupulous agents. Perhaps if @AndyNguyen agrees with me, he can move the India section of the comments to a new thread?

That said, no one can argue that corruption doesn't exist in India - but it is not as wretched and endemic as you are painting it to be. The recent debates on the Ombudsman bill which gripped the nation for weeks should hopefully provide some context to your statements. Now it might well turn out that farcically, after the bill is finally drafted, the Corruption Ombudsman is the most corruptible person in India, but at least the debates should hopefully serve to show that it is not the people who are corrupt or the nation as a whole, but certain sections of the political and bureaucratic hierarchy.

Also, you should not generalise your statements to the whole of India - what you say might be somewhat accurate for the North, but as someone who spent most of his life in the South, while it wasn't perfect, I don't recall the situation being as dire.

 

[Pragyesh]

@ Pragyesh

Dis you ever think that there was an ever easier route to IITs. Also, NOT everyone who gets in IITs is bright. Sire, you are totally wrong.

Almost 50% of seats in IITs are reserved for OBCs/SC/STs who get admitted very easily into these colleges, without putting in as much effort as a general applicant. Many of the times these seats fail to get filled because there are just not enough applicants. One of these years, the cut-off for these applicants actually fell to less than 1.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...rks-toughest-competitive-examinations-iit-jee

I can't possibly imagine getting that many marks is difficult.

You are totally correct regarding the evil system of reservation in India. Without going into the merits and demerits of the system, I would say that so is the case with all the Government colleges and services in India. Whatever the reasons for the system, you are still not able to substantiate your claim that one can easily get into IITs and IIMs by bribing officials.

 

[Pragyesh]

My above posts are testimony to the fact that "Indians are always in Denial about facts, especially about India".

Nobody is denying the fact that corruption in presently an endemic in India. The recent agitation for the Ombudsman Bill is a testimony to the fact. But I still don't see the link between corrupt politicians and bureaucrats and people getting into IITs/IIMs by paying bribes.

 

[rishab dhar]

@avinash

I haven no intention of getting into an argument. My simple statement was that like China, corruption exists in India. But because of those several denial statements, I had no choice but to elaborate that corruption does in-fact occur in India and is pretty severe. Now if anyone expects me to paint a hunky dory situation in India, I would be the last one, for I am a realistic, and I know accept both my inadequacies and weaknesses and India's. I don't like to deny that I can at times be very cynical.

You are quite right that North India is extremely different from South India. Always loved the people in South. People in North just tend to be more corrupt and money hungry than those in South. Similarly, people in South do not tend to be as rude as those in North. Though it is my experience. I wouldn't vouch for others' experiences.

 

[rishab dhar]

@ Pragyesh

I do not want to get into any more fights. If you do want evidence of IIT, just go through this :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Technology_Joint_Entrance_Examination

. In 1997, the JEE was conducted twice after the question paper was leaked in some centers.

Now, I believe that you can use your imagination over why and how the paper was leaked.

Further

http://jee.learnhub.com/news/1342-iit-kharagpur-gave-admission-to-children-of-staff-illegally

An extract from the above article

This discovery was made by Hindustan Times after accessing certain documents using the RTI Act which showed that the country’s oldest IIT â€" started in 1951 â€" blocked 25 per cent of its seats in popular five-year integrated science courses (up to M.Sc level) for handpicked nominees, even as IIT aspirants had to struggle to clear the IIT-JEE for admission.
Other things which came to light were that those who got admission under this quota between 2003 and 2005 did not even need to appear for the entrance exam.

 

[Avinash Burra]

I don't like to deny that I can at times be very cynical.

Won't argue there . Earlier it was just @bigbadwolf 's world view we had to live with, now it's the two of you in tandem, trying to cure the world of optimism one carcass at a time. It's enough to drive a strong man to hang up his blogging thimbles

 

[bigbadwolf]

... but what's remarkable is that the thinkings are so similar for different nations. Corruptions exists everywhere, and there is hardly any education system that is perfect and all-around.

Yes, it is almost everywhere. I have seen it in Africa, in Latin America, and I don't see how Club Med European countries like Greece and Italy are all that different. We are really using North European norms and standards -- and these are an anomaly.

 

[rishab dhar]

@ BBW

Totally agree with BBW here. Now when I talk about corruption in India,my reference is almost always the US and Canada or Western Europe, and by these standards, the corruption does look chronic.

 

[rishab dhar]

@ Avinash

If you look at my first post on this thread, you would actually see that I actually, even though subtly, vouched for India's method for weeding out incompetent applicants, at-least from Asia, where the level of corruption is extremely high and people can, if they want to, can go to any extent to get admitted to these prestigious colleges.

I would suggest that for MFE programs the de-facto standard for Asians should be Math subject test score, followed by GRE (general), IELTS/TOEFL ( as English is a Big problem for these guys), Under graduation marks, 12th marks, and 10th marks.

I think that we can safely say that using Recommendation letters and Essays are, generally, useless for weeding out Asian applicants, as in most cases they are fake. Why waste resources into storing that database and then evaluating it, when there is 95 in 100 chance that it would be fake.

After the entire process has been carried out, a Personal Interview ( just for checking communication skills) can be carried out.

 

[Aditya Chitral]

@ Aditya
I never intended to cause the conversation to go to that end, but the posters forced me to. My only point, as highlighted in my first post, was India is corrupt, and straight off every Indian on the planet jumped in to type that it is untrue.

You definitely need to learn some management/communication skills (perhaps from some IIM). Your way is not really convincing anybody.

Also, couple of your previous posts (after post 54) made me wonder... Why am I replying to this thread?

Officially resigning from the thread (does not warrant the time).

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Discussions on Indian education system are moved from the Chinese education thread as requested.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

I would suggest that for MFE programs the de-facto standard for Asians should be Math subject test score, followed by GRE (general), IELTS/TOEFL ( as English is a Big problem for these guys), Under graduation marks, 12th marks, and 10th marks.

I would share that not too long ago, there was some heated debate among MFE programs directors about the need for a new, specialized GRE test for MFE applicants. Nobody argues that having 800Q GRE means a lot these days.
Eventually, the idea was killed off. As usually, some programs want to keep the status quo and having as many applicants as possible.
IAFE was involved and like everything, if they don't have a majority support, they don't do anything.

I think that we can safely say that using Recommendation letters and Essays are, generally, useless for weeding out Asian applicants, as in most cases they are fake. Why waste resources into storing that database and then evaluating it, when there is 95 in 100 chance that it would be fake.

Letter of recommendation can be submitted entirely online these days. What mechanism would you suggest to prevent cheating?

After the entire process has been carried out, a Personal Interview ( just for checking communication skills) can be carried out.

Baruch MFE eliminated the TOEFL requirement and requires an in-person/phone interview to gauge English skill. Programs that don't do interview will just rely on the test scores and some level of luck.
Spending time on interview is a resource-intensive but I believe sooner or later, many programs will have to go down this path once they realize many students with high verbal score can't speak English.

 

[menovive]

That's a racist comment, completely inappropriate and you should be banned forthwith. Funny how only Americans can be game for criticism but no-one else. Also, for tight, elegant code, Americans are still among the best in the world. Now if you want to talk about ill-documented spaghetti code ....

Awwww !! no no no... Imagine, If only Americans write code for all these major corporations u see now... I see you open an online bank account in 2020 may be !! Even we dont like to make so called "ill-documented spaghetti code" but if those people wants the whole Rome to be built in a day... we are humans too !! U dont kow bro.. in blore/chennai/mumbai - u can find 1000s of Indians working day-night, sat-sun with no vacations not for Hawaii trips but to make a better living standard or to find money for their sister's marriage !! My point is if u have enuf time u can write good code (comparing 10 Americans to 10 Indians and NOT 10 to 1000) !!

 

[menovive]

just google dude.

" You got a DL in 1 month. It's again a joke. Indians spend months, even years, to get a driving license in Canada/UAE/US (even those who had 10 years experience of driving in India), but still aren't given one, because they don't know how to drive. I'll wager a million dollars, if you drive correctly (lane driving) for 100 kms. "

I am very much interested. If not for 1 million atleast 50K. what say?? I need some money for my tuition . Well.. to qualify, I used to drive since I was 17 (1 year illegal driving). I am 27 and in US now. I find US driving way easier and effortless than in India-Ofcourse it is more dull but comfortable when u r tired..!!

 

[menovive]

$200 for a driving license in India!!!!!I think that you have this great sense of injustice because you totally got ripped off.

Yes !! that is way expensive. It took my license in a legitimate way(Kerala) but I know people who paid for that too but not $200 ofcourse. I would say the license should have come with a car !! :P

 

[rishab dhar]

I think numbers do not always matter. Just look at headcount of Microsoft, or even better Apple, whose most of the workforce is in the developed world, and then that of Infy/Wipro/TCS and the results are appalling. With 50% fewer people than either TCS/Wipro/Infy Apple produce 5 times more revenue and 8 times more profit per annum than TCS+Wipro+Infy.

Similarly Microsoft with 89k employees produces $30B in profits/annum whereas TCS with 150k employees barely produces $1B in profit/annum. So you can safely say that each of Microsoft's employee is 15 times more productive than a TCS/Infy/Wipro employee (whose majority of the workers are Indians)

Google ( Again most employees in US or other developed countries) employees 26k Profit ~12B

The productivity of an average Indian programmer (those who are in India) is same or lower than that of a Walmart employee.

Walmart employees ~ 2million profits ~33B
Infy employees ~150k Profit ~2.3B

I think we can safely say that the productivity of an Indian programmer will take years, maybe even decades, to reach that of an American Programmer.

 

[Aditya Chitral]

I think numbers do not always matter. Just look at headcount of Microsoft, or even better Apple, whose most of the workforce is in the developed world, and then that of Infy/Wipro/TCS and the results are appalling. With 50% fewer people than either TCS/Wipro/Infy Apple produce 5 times more revenue and 8 times more profit per annum than TCS+Wipro+Infy.

Similarly Microsoft with 89k employees produces $30B in profits/annum whereas TCS with 150k employees barely produces $1B in profit/annum. So you can safely say that each of Microsoft's employee is 15 times more productive than a TCS/Infy/Wipro employee (whose majority of the workers are Indians)

Google ( Again most employees in US or other developed countries) employees 26k Profit ~12B

The productivity of an average Indian programmer (those who are in India) is same or lower than that of a Walmart employee.

Walmart employees ~ 2million profits ~33B
Infy employees ~150k Profit ~2.3B

I think we can safely say that the productivity of an Indian programmer will take years, maybe even decades, to reach that of an American Programmer.

Dude you have serious issues comparing things. Do you have any idea how the above mentioned companies are different? What products they sell, what is the business model, how much money is spent on R&D and how much needs to be spent, what makes them survive in the market they are in...list is endless...
Even if that does not convince you please find how many of those employees are Indians, Chinese or whatever countries to which you are pointing your finger.

 

[menovive]

I think numbers do not always matter. Just look at headcount of Microsoft, or even better Apple, whose most of the workforce is in the developed world, and then that of Infy/Wipro/TCS and the results are appalling. With 50% fewer people than either TCS/Wipro/Infy Apple produce 5 times more revenue and 8 times more profit per annum than TCS+Wipro+Infy.

Similarly Microsoft with 89k employees produces $30B in profits/annum whereas TCS with 150k employees barely produces $1B in profit/annum. So you can safely say that each of Microsoft's employee is 15 times more productive than a TCS/Infy/Wipro employee (whose majority of the workers are Indians)

Google ( Again most employees in US or other developed countries) employees 26k Profit ~12B

The productivity of an average Indian programmer (those who are in India) is same or lower than that of a Walmart employee.

Walmart employees ~ 2million profits ~33B
Infy employees ~150k Profit ~2.3B

I think we can safely say that the productivity of an Indian programmer will take years, maybe even decades, to reach that of an American Programmer.

Apart from my friend Aditya just said -
Buooy... !! First of all these numbers are WRONG !! It is not a big secret, pls browse tcs.com or infy.com and u can download the balance sheet !! TIW doesnt compete with Microsoft or Apple. And also If Microsoft employees 89K directly they also employees another 100K indirectly with the same TIW to even small ones like 'IdentityMine' across world. Do you know how many employees are working for Apple in Foxxconn and other companies in China, Thailand etc other than same TWI in calif !! Please dont BullS*** !!