Is programming knowledge a requirement for MFE grads ?

[roni]

Well, I was looking at the different programs and I noticed that programs like Baruch, UCB, Columbia or Princeton accept applicants without strong background in programming (as opposed to CMU or NYU?) .
I do have some programming knowledge (can do basic programing in C and Pascal), and I am taking next semester "Programming I"(C++/JAVA) class (hopefully will be able to take "Programming II" in spring 2010).
However, as far as I understand many applicants do have strong programming skills.

So, my question is this, will I have a problem finding a job after graduation without strong programming skills? or even if I find, do those who lack the programming skill get lower salaries?

Roni.

 

[dstefan]

All the students admitted to the Baruch MFE Program need to have at least one semester of C++. Most actually have a much stronger programming background.

 

[financeguy]

most people at columbia (masters level) too have strong programming in multiple languages... meaning way stronger than just a semester of C++

it's not a question of salary. if you want a job in quant, you need strong programming. if you don't have it, you dont get that job. period. you could do something else in finance that is not "quant" - salary would then not really be all that correlated with level of programming ability since its a different job function

 

[FourthQuattro]

how does one start getting into C++ programming? Financial Engineering has been a really interesting subject to further my knowledge for some time. Sadly I dont know anybody outside of here that is even remotely interested in such.

 

[doug reich]

how does one start getting into C++ programming? Financial Engineering has been a really interesting subject to further my knowledge for some time. Sadly I dont know anybody outside of here that is even remotely interested in such.

Pick up a book and download a compiler and start playing. Go to the "master reading list for MFE" on this site for suggested books.

If you haven't programmed before, it will be hard.

 

[roni]

most people at columbia (masters level) too have strong programming in multiple languages... meaning way stronger than just a semester of C++

it's not a question of salary. if you want a job in quant, you need strong programming. if you don't have it, you dont get that job. period. you could do something else in finance that is not "quant" - salary would then not really be all that correlated with level of programming ability since its a different job function

I think you are mistaken, many MFE programs say that basic programming might be sufficient for the program.
However, CMU, for example, requires good programming skills.

 

[roni]

Pick up a book and download a compiler and start playing. Go to the "master reading list for MFE" on this site for suggested books.

If you haven't programmed before, it will be hard.

I have programmed before (C/Pascal), and I will be taking a basic programming course in the coming fall semester (and probably another programming class in spring 2010)
So, to expand my programming knowledge, I want to buy a book or two from this thread:
https://www.quantnet.com/threads/ma...uants-mfe-financial-engineering-students.535/
Should I buy a C++ book specific for financial engineers or a general C++ book? and should it be a basic or an advanced one?

Would appreciate if you gave your opinion.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Should I buy a C++ book specific for financial engineers or a general C++ book? and should it be a basic or an advanced one?

You need a general book as a guide to the language but don't work through it (refer to it when needed or read bits and pieces when you have a bit of spare time). There have been some books on C++/C# specifically for financial engineers -- but I don't remember the one I'm looking for, which is on C# in finance (no, not the Levy book). One book I would recommend is Kerry Back's "A Course in Derivative Securities" for the algorithms. The code itself is in VBA. Try to implement the algorithms in C++ or C# and you will learn quite a bit. This is a very useful book but no-one seems to talk about it.

 

[doug reich]

Should I buy a C++ book specific for financial engineers or a general C++ book? and should it be a basic or an advanced one?

Those depend. If you need to learn C++ syntax, you need a reference type book to go over it, e.g. Absolute C++. Once you have that down, it's all about style and applications - spring for a finance one. As I have heard over and over again, to call yourself a C++ programmer you have to use object orientation.

Not to be facetious, but if you are at a basic level, get a "basic" book, and otherwise an "advanced" book. That is personal and nobody is going to be able to judge it in a 3-sentence description of your background. Personally, I think just picking up any book and pushing through it is better than finding the "right" book. Having someone to discuss your learning with is much more important. But I take the approach to lots of things, sometimes with bad results.

 

[Stefan Zota]

I think you are mistaken, many MFE programs say that basic programming might be sufficient for the program.
However, CMU, for example, requires good programming skills.

It depends what you consider "sufficiency".
If sufficiency is a chance to be accepted, then it is correct. You can compensate in other areas.
If sufficiency is a chance to complete the program, then it is correct in most cases. If you work hard during program to learn programming, then you will survive.
If sufficiency is a chance to find a job in the field at the end, then it is false in most cases.

You should read again Doug's advice and delve into programming. It requires a few years until the concepts are natural to you.

 

[roni]

Why would any program accept you ( with OK programming skills) if your chances to find a job after graduation are small ?

If STRONG programming skills were a must, each and every program would indicate it, imho.

Anyways, I believe that if I want STRONG programming background, I'll need do get a degree in computer science(or something related) + get some programming experience in the job market. Otherwise, I can develop it up to an advanced level (by reading books) but not to an expert level.
OR
you define " strong" programming skills differently.

 

[roni]

Those depend. If you need to learn C++ syntax, you need a reference type book to go over it, e.g. Absolute C++. Once you have that down, it's all about style and applications - spring for a finance one. As I have heard over and over again, to call yourself a C++ programmer you have to use object orientation.

Not to be facetious, but if you are at a basic level, get a "basic" book, and otherwise an "advanced" book. That is personal and nobody is going to be able to judge it in a 3-sentence description of your background. Personally, I think just picking up any book and pushing through it is better than finding the "right" book. Having someone to discuss your learning with is much more important. But I take the approach to lots of things, sometimes with bad results.

So, do you think if I buy a basic C++ book and a C++ book for financial engineers, I'll be fine ?

or course I'll develop my skills by creating application and so.

OR I need to buy an advanced C++ book to be able to do real things with it ?!

 

[alain]

I can develop it up to an advanced level (by reading books) but not to an expert level.

I totally disagree with this. If you want to become an expert/advance programmer, you better sit an code.. A LOT!!! books will help but they are not substitute for hands on experience coding.

 

[Stefan Zota]

Why would any program accept you ( with OK programming skills) if your chances to find a job after graduation are small ?

If STRONG programming skills were a must, each and every program would indicate it, imho.

Anyways, I believe that if I want STRONG programming background, I'll need do get a degree in computer science(or something related) + get some programming experience in the job market. Otherwise, I can develop it up to an advanced level (by reading books) but not to an expert level.
OR
you define " strong" programming skills differently.

My response was generic, not for a specific program.
Some programs had limited programming prerequisites before 2006/2007. So you had a good chance to be admitted and to graduate. However, in this time, the market has become much more competitive.
After you graduate you need to compete with a high numbers of experienced quants. Vast majority have done programming at their job.

The maturity of existing models in markets, contraction in markets have lead to a smaller number of positions with pure modelling where programming is not first item on the list.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Why would any program accept you ( with OK programming skills) if your chances to find a job after graduation are small?

Most MFE programs are in business to make money. They're not completely indifferent to your getting a job -- if a sufficient number of their students do get jobs, they can advertise it -- but their primary motive is to make money for themselves.

Perhaps you want reassurance from the posters here. You will not get it. Everyone is uniformly telling you to sit with some books and do actual coding -- the more the better. Experiment with code, with implementing algorithms, with debugging -- there's no shortcut.

So, do you think if I buy a basic C++ book and a C++ book for financial engineers, I'll be fine ?

OR I need to buy an advanced C++ book to be able to do real things with it ?!

You need to buy books on an ongoing basis. Not just one or two.

Otherwise, I can develop it up to an advanced level (by reading books) but not to an expert level.

You mean by reading and doing a lot of coding.

Most quants are glorified scientific programmers with some knowledge of mathematics and finance. Not the other way around. Don't entertain delusions about the nature of quant work.