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Is the City closed for non-EU entry-level quants starting April 2011? - career advice

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Couple of years ago I posted a question https://www.quantnet.com/threads/phd-in-math-computer-science-in-europe-quant.1432/ on possibility of switching to quant finance having my background. Now I am in the process of finishing with writing of my PhD thesis, and the plan was to spend some six months after my defense doing the necessary reading for the interviews. The plan was further to apply for a UK Tier 1 visa sometime September 2011 (as I am a non-EU national), and to move to London to try to find a job.

During my undergrad I did some decent math, stats, PDEs, numerical analysis, as well as C++. MSc was done in Germany, in AI, while PhD in France is in topology/abstract algebra/math. logic. There were people in the past landing jobs in the City with nearly identical background to mine, but that was before 2008. People speak of fierce competition for entry-level jobs these days. As if it wasn't enough, UK government has decided to cancel the Tier 1 visa program, which in practice means that if you are a non-EU national, your prospective employer needs to go through the hurdle of Tier 2 sponsorship process. At the entry level, this practically ruins any chance of getting hired over a EU citizen.

Am I right? Is the situation any better in the rest of Europe? Any advice?
 
Yep, it's tough, don't think it gets all the way to good anywhere.

I don't have much knowledge of the French system, but I'd look to see if there was a provision for recent grads to work in Paris for a year or so.
 
Still, is it reasonable to assume that at least major firms will adapt to the new situation at more senior levels of hiring, especially since the new immigration rules are here to stay?

It seems reasonable to expect that bank managements will demand systematic procedures form HR people in terms of more involved paperwork, Tier 2 visas, and non-discrimination based on visa status, rather than discard a priori non-EU candidates. Simply, I doubt that anyone can afford less-than-optimal hiring in this climate even if it means more hustle.

Entry-level hiring is a different story, and I expect biggest impact to be seen there.

Dominic, do you see in your practice that having someone in a bank to put a good word for a candidate can overcome visa issues?
 
I notice just about a couple of years ago, it was really easy to migrate to probably anywhere in the world. I am not sure, if it is due to recession, so if thats the case migration should return to normal after the recovery.. I assume
 
How does this affect internship opportunities during a UK program?
 
@Katrina: hardening of the immigration policy is more of a political issue within a wider shift in perception of immigration in Europe (Germany, Holland, France...). It is a trend that is not likely to change soon. The expected impact on economies will probably soften the blow for highly skilled labor, but that will take time.

@letangke: internship opportunities during a program should not be jeopardized. What is at stake is landing a job *after* a program. For that reason, the immigration reform threatens to close entirely MFE programs in UK for non-EU students, since they spend decent money for an education after which they cannot get a job in the country.

What I would like to know is if the employers in the City will give preference to EU candidates for reasons of simpler hiring procedure after the reform takes effect.
 
@Novak, I agree with Dominic here. It will be better to secure a quant role outside the UK, but with a firm that has an established presence within the UK, and then seek to move to the City via an internal transfer after a year or so. Despite the immigration rules, there will always be a high demand for mathematical modelling and quant talent that cannot be satisfied by restricting the candidate pool to EU citizens only. It seems banks will start to hire outside and move talent into the city via internal transfers, if these immigration restrictions persist.
 
Thanks, Dominic and Timmi! If UK is going to be increasingly more closed for non-EU candidates, what is likely to be the new destination for these people at entry-level?

From what I have heard, hiring in France is more volatile than elsewhere and is subject to many factors that do not necessarily have to do with candidate's abilities.

What about the rest of Europe? Switzerland? Does Russia make sense at all, or the other Eastern European countries? Dubai?
 
@Novak,
I would have thought Paris should be a good start. I may also be wrong here, but Tokyo seems to be a popular destination amongst PhD quants from France, and Singapore also seems to have an open door policy for the young (under 30, not sure though) and talented, when times are good.
 
If you can't get into London or NY, then there are places like Hong Kong & Singapore.
Again I'm not an expert on visa rules for India or China, but my understanding is that it's not that much easier there.

The law in the UK has changed faster than I have kept up, so it's time to talk to my reassuringly expensive lawyers so that my advice gets better.

Banks don't like the paperwork for visa stuff, and on top of that they don't like the uncertainty.
As an example, one person I know applied for a permit, was denied, and in my sight opened the letter returning their documents, put them in a different envelope and sent them in again and was almost immediately approved.

@Novak Obviously I don't know much about you, but your handle implies you might be Russian, and I should make you aware that Deutsche have a decent office in Moscow that does real work, much of which is for the NY/London parts of the firm.

My view is that banks in London will evolve a better attitude towards non-EU skilled staff, but it's a very muddled at present.

The US is different, politicians have imposed rules against employing non-US citizens specifically on banks. That won 't stop them doing it, but it will be a steeper hill to climb, since they will have to want you more.

So my advice is not as good as I would like it to be...
It's to sharpen your skills enough that banks will really want to go through the pain of visa stuff.
 
If you can't get into London or NY, then there are places like Hong Kong & Singapore.
Again I'm not an expert on visa rules for India or China, but my understanding is that it's not that much easier there.
to get a Indian work permit, you need to find a job which pays around $25K/year
 
Close enough, I am from Serbia. This means that I look European, and I had a proper hard-core-Eastern-European undergrad training in maths. For people in this part of the world it is easy to work in Russia - language, visas, etc. , thus the question. There are some quant-like shops in the region, but due to the shallow local markets, I don't know if it is a good place to start a career. (having said that, people from two German banks operating in Southeastern Europe showed interest in me)

From many perspectives, London is the place to be. To be honest, India and China sound a bit too exotic, wheres some time in Hong Kong & Singapore could be an option. (better infrastructure, I guess)

I guess I'll do first some internship locally once I am ready, then some networking, and try with London. Perhaps good networking can provide additional security for potential employers. If that doesn't work, I'll try Paris, then the rest of the world.

Still, the question I originally posted remains valid... will banks try to adapt to the new situation, or will they decide it is not worth the effort and stick to the people with work permits? I guess we'll see.
 
Novak - Are there any kind of work visa options available to countries undergoing the EU accession process?
You might want to investigate that route in case there are any options that are obscure but may help?
 
Serbia will no doubt be assimilated by the EU relatively soon, but not soon enough to be immediately useful to you.

You are right that there is a good "brand image" for maths education in E.Europe / Russia, but that does not translate to it being a good place to start a career. We tend to call it the "Wimbledon Effect", where the British tennis championships are the most prestigious in the world, but are never won by Brits.

There are some options of questionable validity...

You can come and do a masters in something (not finance) in London, that gets you in, and give you a good shot at ducking and elbowing through.

The reason I say in your specific case not to study finance is that UK MSc finance courses are quite expensive, and I get the impression you don't have serious cash lying around. But courses in statistics, econometrics, et al are relatively cheap. (note the word "relatively)
There may exist an option where a mutant version of the CFA counts as a masters degree for this purpose, but it looks so dodgy I need to dig a bit on this.

It is very rare that my broadcast advice recommends a specific course, but I think you should consider the Master of Advanced Studies at Cambridge. There are those who claim it to be the best course for an aspiring quant in the UK, even though it doesn't actually contain any finance. It's relatively cheap, but hard to get onto.

Lastly, there exist schemes by which you could come to the UK as a visiting academic.

Ironically, I believe that I could hire you as my children's nanny tomorrow, which would allow me to deal with my genius 9 year old pestering me to teach him random matrix theory, which for various reasons I never did myself.
(I hated doing LA)

You might have noticed that I regard these rules as illegitimate and racist, and thus will expend effort to help people dodge them, bounded only by the need to remain within the law.
 
Be aware also...
Some banks taken on E.European and Indian staff in their native country promising that if they work hard they can be transferred to London/NY/Chicago. This is often a lie, I have with my own eyes seen mails from HR departments forbidding such transfers without exceptional need and approval from very high up.
 
Serbia will enter EU, but not very soon. Even when that happens, being able to work is altogether another issue. To the best of my knowledge, citizens of the countries that had entered EU in 2004 still cannot freely be employed in the EEA area.

As for UK programs... doing a MFE in Britain is feasible for me, but too risky. Both money- and time- wise. Part III of the math Tripos at Cambridge certainly makes more sense for me. I have met many fellow PhD students at conferences who did the degree. It seems that it was a good step for them with tremendous benefit towards their PhD research. I've even actively worked with some of the lecturers at the Master of Advanced Studies program, and while I have no doubts in quality of the course, I cannot shake the feeling I am passed the point of going back to do yet another master degree. (It is not necessarily an age thing, I am 29.) I am sure I can teach myself the necessary stuff, after all I did it once for my PhD in an another area, and I am more inclined to trying to avoid all of that, and try to get a job / internship directly, with possible help of the people I now in the industry, colleagues, people that are familiar with my work. If the job market proves itself impenetrable, I will be forced to rethink along the lines of a MFE/MAS.

The easiest way to enter UK for an academic is through a postdoc position, which should be feasible in my case, since I have several good contacts in the country. This means I could be stationed in the country during the job search. (Btw, thanks Connor, for the nanny offer!)

Having lived in France, Germany and Austria, I am used to 'more control' attitude towards immigration. Xenophobia is universal, and is a cheap trick utilized by politicians to boost their ratings. As a rule of the thumb, once faced with the demands of their respective economies for cheap, quality labor, governments change their initial positions and start playing the 'more integration' tune.
 
The easiest way to enter UK for an academic is through a postdoc position, which should be feasible in my case, since I have several good contacts in the country. This means I could be stationed in the country during the job search. (Btw, thanks Connor, for the nanny offer!)

Not sure if you have any contacts at the UEA but that might be worth looking into. Norwich (home to the UEA) is twinned with Novi Sad and they have cultural exchange programmes between the cities.

The University is also about an hour and a half away from the City of London by train as well so a good base for job hunting, compared to say Manchester, Nottingham etc.
 
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