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Need advice!
- Thread starter JinWJ
- Start date
- Joined
- 4/19/10
- Messages
- 7
- Points
- 11
I am currently starting out my career as an equity analyst in an investment bank in Singapore. Here is my take JinWJ:
Pros:
- Saves my parents a hell lot of money (definitely true)
- Valuable experience working in an investment bank (depends on which position? I would pressume its going to be IT)
- Job security upon graduation (Not really. People get screwed over and over again. You are warned)
- I'll basically get a Masters in CS in that 4 years for free (free education rocks!)
Cons:
- Detracts me from a direct route to a career in algo trading. I am under the impression that only PhDs gets to be in the front office algo trading team and I don't know if Barcap would assign me to work in that area.
(Do a PhD only if you want to be an academic FIRST. Honest opinion is that you wouldn't know what you want yet and market dynamics might change after 5 years, algo jobs might be more/less depending on where you want to work)
- Lower pay than if I were to work in the US/UK. I assume the Singapore office don't pay as well as those in Western countries, correct me if I'm wrong.
(Only FO in Singapore pays well but ultimately the equity market is in HK. SG is good for FX,Rates)
Lastly, this is important. Investment banks are doing less prop. trading/exotics and stuff like that. Business model is shifting back to traditional sell side brokage. Just taking spreads and a lil props in their books.If you are really into algo trading. That will be in US and in Hedge Funds. AND if you are looking for a career that pays well and intellectually challenging there are many other jobs out there too. DO NOT limit your options to a single career path but have a rough idea of where you want to be. Good luck mate. You will do very well given that you have starting to plan now already.
Pros:
- Saves my parents a hell lot of money (definitely true)
- Valuable experience working in an investment bank (depends on which position? I would pressume its going to be IT)
- Job security upon graduation (Not really. People get screwed over and over again. You are warned)
- I'll basically get a Masters in CS in that 4 years for free (free education rocks!)
Cons:
- Detracts me from a direct route to a career in algo trading. I am under the impression that only PhDs gets to be in the front office algo trading team and I don't know if Barcap would assign me to work in that area.
(Do a PhD only if you want to be an academic FIRST. Honest opinion is that you wouldn't know what you want yet and market dynamics might change after 5 years, algo jobs might be more/less depending on where you want to work)
- Lower pay than if I were to work in the US/UK. I assume the Singapore office don't pay as well as those in Western countries, correct me if I'm wrong.
(Only FO in Singapore pays well but ultimately the equity market is in HK. SG is good for FX,Rates)
Lastly, this is important. Investment banks are doing less prop. trading/exotics and stuff like that. Business model is shifting back to traditional sell side brokage. Just taking spreads and a lil props in their books.If you are really into algo trading. That will be in US and in Hedge Funds. AND if you are looking for a career that pays well and intellectually challenging there are many other jobs out there too. DO NOT limit your options to a single career path but have a rough idea of where you want to be. Good luck mate. You will do very well given that you have starting to plan now already.
- Joined
- 5/9/11
- Messages
- 10
- Points
- 11
I know this is not an easy choice especially since that 5 years long bond is rather a long time. However, it looks like you need to get a huge portion of your parents' savings in order to fund your undergraduate studies yourself.
I know how East Asians general think about education (I am an East Asian too). However, this looks like a no-brainer to me. If you can't get a loan with low interest-rate, I would suggest to accept the bond and save your parents that money.
Anything can happen within 3~4 years. I know a friend whose grandmother was terminally ill, and his family had to spend a fortune taking care of her, so he had to take a break from the undergraduate stuides here in U.S.
You might not understand or don't like what I am saying because you are young and full of potential and ambition, but you have to really understand your family situation (not saying your family is poor, just that your family is not freaking rich like some other international students I know) and act accordingly. At the end, Barclays Capital is not that bad and Singapore is on the rise, right?
- Joined
- 5/9/11
- Messages
- 10
- Points
- 11
I totally agree with what Sam is saying too. However, I don't think it's wise to use most of your family's saving to your education, especially when you have the other option which pays your full tuition plus other stuff. Like I said, look for other options first to help fund your education (like gov't scholarship, singapore loans, tutor high school students in bay area while at UCB and charge like 50 bucks an hour), which will not put any limits to your future after the undergraduate studies. However, if I were you and had only those two choices, and know my parents are not that freaking rich, I would definitedly take that Barclay option.
DominiConnor
Quant Headhunter
- Joined
- 9/6/06
- Messages
- 1,051
- Points
- 93
First thing is that if you are talking about a PhD, we are looking at the world starting 7-8 years from now. It will be different, not only that its not realistic to predict in what ways it will be different. Algotrading may be saturated, or it may be the only game in town.
Remember that your pay is a function of a) the amount of money being made in a market and b) supply / demand for your skills. All are highly variable.
Also BarCap must really think you're something special, $220K is a lot to pay for an option to hire someone N years from now when they're only 18. Well done.
But as a headhunter I see this as an objective evaluation of your capabilities, and one has to assume that you stand out relative to other UCB undergrads. Also BarCap is not a charity, they expect this to pay back, implying that you are not only bright but useful.
That means you will probably earn enough to make good money in your career if optimising for money is your goal, so that leads me to counsel you to put a bit less weight on the 220K because as a % of your career earnings it is not that critical.
If you continue in full time education after your degree, do you have to pay back the bond ?
When you start working for them will you be paid just like any other person who wasn't sponsored ?
The six months attachments are valuable experience whatever you end up doing.
Today Singapore does not pay as well as the US or UK, but we're now talking about a range of time from 8 years to 15 years from now. It may be the case that Sing pays better, or it may be a smoking ruin after raids from Chinese bombers. Over those timescales there are lots of possible outcomes. Barcap may be the largest bank in the world by now, or as recent history shows it may be chopped up by regulators and/or accidents in the market.
Lets assume that algorithmic trading is your goal
You're smart and have the opportunity to talk to lots of people at a major bank about this line of work.
You may not like or have the particular talents for this, so you learn this without too much pain, and easily move to an area that suits you better.
Over the next 3-4 years you can find out about HFT at BarCap, and try to score an assignment there.
Given that they are investing so much time and effort in you, I believe they will try to put you in things you have a passion for.
You should be able to learn which skills are useful to the styles of HFT that BarCap are using, be aware there are several HFT groups there, not all have a name that would allow you to work that out.
That means you can pick course options that improve your chances.
However, they will have plans for you...
This is part of a structure where HR and IT map out what they want you to do, and since they are paying for the music, they get to call the tune. That means it is certain that at least one assignment will be in some shitty part of BarCap. Shitty is of course subjective, but since there are so many parts to a major bank I am certain there are several you will hate a lot.
Lastly, Sam Chan is absolutely right that a PhD is not a choice to be made entire on career enhancement. If you find a particular highly specialist topic interesting, then go for it, but the best way I can characterise a career PhD is like marrying a girl you don't like merely because she has rich parents, and in this case they aren't even all that rich.
Remember that your pay is a function of a) the amount of money being made in a market and b) supply / demand for your skills. All are highly variable.
Also BarCap must really think you're something special, $220K is a lot to pay for an option to hire someone N years from now when they're only 18. Well done.
But as a headhunter I see this as an objective evaluation of your capabilities, and one has to assume that you stand out relative to other UCB undergrads. Also BarCap is not a charity, they expect this to pay back, implying that you are not only bright but useful.
That means you will probably earn enough to make good money in your career if optimising for money is your goal, so that leads me to counsel you to put a bit less weight on the 220K because as a % of your career earnings it is not that critical.
If you continue in full time education after your degree, do you have to pay back the bond ?
When you start working for them will you be paid just like any other person who wasn't sponsored ?
The six months attachments are valuable experience whatever you end up doing.
Today Singapore does not pay as well as the US or UK, but we're now talking about a range of time from 8 years to 15 years from now. It may be the case that Sing pays better, or it may be a smoking ruin after raids from Chinese bombers. Over those timescales there are lots of possible outcomes. Barcap may be the largest bank in the world by now, or as recent history shows it may be chopped up by regulators and/or accidents in the market.
Lets assume that algorithmic trading is your goal
You're smart and have the opportunity to talk to lots of people at a major bank about this line of work.
You may not like or have the particular talents for this, so you learn this without too much pain, and easily move to an area that suits you better.
Over the next 3-4 years you can find out about HFT at BarCap, and try to score an assignment there.
Given that they are investing so much time and effort in you, I believe they will try to put you in things you have a passion for.
You should be able to learn which skills are useful to the styles of HFT that BarCap are using, be aware there are several HFT groups there, not all have a name that would allow you to work that out.
That means you can pick course options that improve your chances.
However, they will have plans for you...
This is part of a structure where HR and IT map out what they want you to do, and since they are paying for the music, they get to call the tune. That means it is certain that at least one assignment will be in some shitty part of BarCap. Shitty is of course subjective, but since there are so many parts to a major bank I am certain there are several you will hate a lot.
Lastly, Sam Chan is absolutely right that a PhD is not a choice to be made entire on career enhancement. If you find a particular highly specialist topic interesting, then go for it, but the best way I can characterise a career PhD is like marrying a girl you don't like merely because she has rich parents, and in this case they aren't even all that rich.
- Joined
- 1/10/11
- Messages
- 124
- Points
- 38
This is similar to ROTC scholarships here in the United States, where the Army pays your full tuition in exchange for serving for some amount of years. During your time in college, if you don't keep in shape, they'll kick you out, and owe the Army the money.
Will you need to maintain a minimum GPA?
Will you be miserable working for BarCap for 5 years?
How will your sub-par earnings at BarCap effect your future earnings 5+ years out? Generally, the lower you start, the lower end up.
This is definitely NOT risk-free.
Will you need to maintain a minimum GPA?
Will you be miserable working for BarCap for 5 years?
How will your sub-par earnings at BarCap effect your future earnings 5+ years out? Generally, the lower you start, the lower end up.
This is definitely NOT risk-free.
roni
Cornell FE
- Joined
- 3/19/09
- Messages
- 608
- Points
- 38
I had a math professor who got his undergrad degree from MIT, MBA from Columbia and a PhD from NYU. Somewhere in between he worked on Wall Street.
So, it's possible...
- Joined
- 4/11/09
- Messages
- 89
- Points
- 18
Truth is, if you start in Asia, mobility will be limited within Asia. If you have experience making markets in the fastest growing regions in the world, your manager would be nuts to move you back to NY/LDN. At least I wouldn't do it if I'm your manager -- competition for talent in Singapore and HK is very high.
Singapore is a great hub for FX, rates, commodities in Asia Pac, but I haven't heard much about algorithmic trading here. There's more scale in HK. GETCO has been recruiting aggressively for their new office, though. As mentioned above, base salary for front office position is the same as other financial hubs, with the average bonus component being actually higher in the past 2-3 years. (No surprises).
- Joined
- 4/23/11
- Messages
- 179
- Points
- 28
I have to take sides with the Barclays deal , as people have mentioned who knows what will happen ~8 years from now.
Hell, you might not even like to do a PhD after your undergard. The Barclays deal seem to be a sure bet, you can always continue to study part-time while working there.Not to mention that going back to school after a few years of experience is much better in my opinion since you will have a very clear view of your real goals and your conclusions will be based on your own life experience.
Furthermore, try to see what are the conditions on the Barclays deal.
1.Maybe if you would be very very into doing the PhD it won't be so bad to break it since your parents didn't spend their money and they will be able to help.
2.You need to check what are the constraints from Barclays, GPA, they don't assure you a position just an option for one, what is the position they are aiming you for? etc.
Hell, you might not even like to do a PhD after your undergard. The Barclays deal seem to be a sure bet, you can always continue to study part-time while working there.Not to mention that going back to school after a few years of experience is much better in my opinion since you will have a very clear view of your real goals and your conclusions will be based on your own life experience.
Furthermore, try to see what are the conditions on the Barclays deal.
1.Maybe if you would be very very into doing the PhD it won't be so bad to break it since your parents didn't spend their money and they will be able to help.
2.You need to check what are the constraints from Barclays, GPA, they don't assure you a position just an option for one, what is the position they are aiming you for? etc.
- Joined
- 2/21/12
- Messages
- 2
- Points
- 11
yes go with the BarCap opportunity.
its hard to get a job in finance nowadays not to mention that BarCap is growing to become a reputable firm and is expanding rapidly in Asia. I actually think that Singapore is BarCap's hub in Asia, so in essence you are being put into the HQ of BarCap Asia.
Experience with working in Asia is also increasingly considered to be an asset to your CV. I'd imagine that you would be rotated around.
obviously you will be saving a lot of money for your parents. In fact, let your parents keep their money because a few years from now, they will be able to live happily (materialistically) after they retire and won't bother you with those "take care of your family" guilt trips.
There is no need to limit your options at the moment, your mind may change after a few years in the industry and change your field of interest. You may even want to study MBA instead of PhD.
its hard to get a job in finance nowadays not to mention that BarCap is growing to become a reputable firm and is expanding rapidly in Asia. I actually think that Singapore is BarCap's hub in Asia, so in essence you are being put into the HQ of BarCap Asia.
Experience with working in Asia is also increasingly considered to be an asset to your CV. I'd imagine that you would be rotated around.
obviously you will be saving a lot of money for your parents. In fact, let your parents keep their money because a few years from now, they will be able to live happily (materialistically) after they retire and won't bother you with those "take care of your family" guilt trips.
There is no need to limit your options at the moment, your mind may change after a few years in the industry and change your field of interest. You may even want to study MBA instead of PhD.
- Joined
- 2/21/12
- Messages
- 2
- Points
- 11
you will be fine, you might even be headhunted before your 5 years is up at BarCap if you are good with your job.
Shanghai... not sure about that in a few years time but the securities market is still very closed door at the moment and most banks cannot operate unless they have a JV with a local securities firm.
NY / London not sure - hate to say this but I do think there is discrimination against Asians in these offices.
Hong Kong - yes I can see you in that.
- Joined
- 4/28/11
- Messages
- 9
- Points
- 13
Kla wow i'm surprised you found this old thread. Thanks to all the advice I've received on this forum and from family and friends, I've taken up the scholarship and am very satisfied with my choice. Studying in the US as an international student was not as simple as I had thought and I'm grateful to be able to concentrate on my studies and interests without worrying about part-time jobs / sourcing for financial aid like some of my peers. 
